What's With The PPI For Old Ferraris?

I don't think the issue is whether that 1980 308 is "perfect" or "needs stuff". They all need something. It's a question of the price paid for that specific car relative to its condition, and you can't really assign a value without knowing the condition of the expensive components.

If you're mechanically inclined, maybe you can assess all of this. It's worth it to me to have someone who knows the idiosyncrasies of the cars have a look: problems aren't always as obvious as a cloud of blue smoke behind the car.

Would you buy a Boxer based on your own inspection?

 

Hey Barry, your irony detector is broken!

 

Ken.

I recently passed on a '73 246GTS. The paint looked great, and it drove pretty well. I figured it needed some work. Like some interior repairs, and the suspension seemed a little soft.

I sent it for a PPI. EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE WAS WRONG WITH THE CAR. The only thing it passed was the compression test.

Now remember, I ahve a very strong GT that I drive to compare it to. My own original estimate was $15-20K max to put in in order. The PPI (Which cost $230 from Algar) pointed out electrical issues, a problem with the brakes, the dinoplex wasn't working, the bushings were shot, the shocks were original and beat, valves needed adjusting, gear box made some funny noise that they didn't like, on and on. When I did the math on the repairs (at dealer prices) it came to over $40K.

So, I did my own seat of the pants PPI, then had the dealer do one, and then passed on the car at $85K.

The car sold the next day for $80K to a dealer down south, who re-sold the car for $95K the next day, to someone who is going to be VERY UNHAPPY once he gets done paying to get it run right.

I'm a firm believer in the merits of a PPI, unless you're a seasoned mechanic. But then of course, you're doing your own PPI before you buy, right?

Dave

 

I purchased my car before ever looking at a Ferrari web site or hearing of a PPI. The owner didn't know spit about the car but had a major done 8K prior to my buying the car. I went to his mechanic who was a ex Ferrari mechanic and who also stored this car during the winter. I talked with him and got all of the info I needed. I didn't have compression or leakdown numbers but my test drive indicated I didn't need them to determine the motor was strong. The body was stripped and redone 5 years prior to my buying the car. So now 5+ years later and 1 belt change a few years ago the thing is still as quick as I brought it. I guess I can see the wrench impaired people getting a PPI but for someone who can't do their own work I feel they should consider that they'll get their pockets picked everytime they need something done. I can see the folks with the newer cars (1990 +) are in a different class and I would say maybe only 5% work on their own cars but they have deep pockets anyway . So PPI is good for non-wrench turners but I'll do my own.

 

Ken:

The difference is that you're a car guy that does his own work. Some buyers don't know how to even check the oil. The default setting is "get a PPI", but with experience, you don't always need to do it. When a tech at an authorized dealer is performing a track inspection of your car and says "gee, you know more about this model than I do", then you can pretty much skip it.

Your mileage may vary,
Erik

 

I'm pretty good with a wrench, but I can't tell compression and leakdown from just driving a car. IF I'm looking at a 12 cyl car, and it has one bad cylinder, would I be able to tell that unless I've driven a dozen other 12 cyl cars? Or even then?

I looked at a car recently with 1 year old paint. Looked good, but had lots of issues lurking under the paint. Would your average Joe spot that?

I'm not "wrench impaired" but I still get one.

Are you suggesting that all mechanics inflate their quotes or charge too much? Painting with a pretty broad brush there.

Geez but you stereotype. Some of the older cars are worth significanlty more than the new ones. The electronics in the new cars prevent doing much of the work, don't they?

Absolutely. But, anyone who buys a car without having a skilled mechanic check it out is buying blind. IF you consider yourself that skilled, great, but I'd suggest that maybe 1% of the guys on here are that good, and to suggest the any of the others skip the PPI is dangerous, to say the least.

Just my $.02.

DM

 

it all depends on how good a mechanic you are. Can you perform your own leak down tests? can you spot when a cars been hit? I wont trust myself w that especially since I know what it could cost to rebuild

 

Well then..play at your own risk...old or not.

 

You don't need a PPI if you know the quirks of a certain model. A small noise here or a splash of grease there can say a lot to someone who knows. Also, being able to compare performance comes in handy. I have logged thousands of miles in my car, but it's the only Ferrari that I have ever driven. Other than the fact that I can keep up at club events, I have no idea if my car is a relative dog or jackrabbit.

 

I would try not to! But if I'm in the Boxer market, we're talking $80k and up. I'm going to learn as much as I can, talk to owners here, and drive the car myself that I want. If the guy wants $125k I want to go through every nut and bolt! That's only a job for a pro; you don't want to pay that for a needy Boxer.

But if it runs, doesn't leak, drives well, and it's $80k? I'd DO the leak down/compression on this car if I could, but that's about it outside of my own personal checklist. I already know I'm in for some buckage to bring it up to snuff anyway so as long as the big stuff is good, I figure I'm okay.


Ken

 

During the yearlong search which ended with the purchase of my 330 2+2 in Nov. '02, I found independent vintage-specialist mechanics, even some big-time, nationally known people, to be the friendliest, most honest and upfront, and most willing to offer advice. It's their business, and they don't have a stake in the sale. In the Ferrari world, I've also found specialist mechanics to not be ordinary guys that work on cars...they're prideful enthusiasts and often have a vintage car of their own.

My PPI was invaluable because it gave me a solid diagnosis of essentials, which has since proven out, and made me confident that the purchase was a good risk. It didn't catch every last thing, and I've spent a few thousand $ that I didn't expect to, but if you're not willing to accept those probabilities, then you don't have any business messing with any but the newest, lowest-mileage, and still-warranted Ferraris.

 

Just as an aside, of the four Ferraris I've purchased, EVERY one of them was the first of it's model that I've driven (in fact, every one of them is still the *only* one of each that I've driven).

That's because I don't generally go looking for cars (and when I have, I've been unsuccessful). Instead, they seem to find me.

 

It might also be helpful to ask the opposite question:

"Why _wouldn't_ you want to get a PPI."

About the only answers to this question I could come up with were: 1) cost, 2) don't trust the inspecting mechanic, and 3) fear that the person doing the inspection will "snatch the car out from under you."

My PPI experience is with Alfas, but I've always found the extra set of eyes to be very helpful. The 'second opinion' often brings up issues I'd not considered, and serves to confirm impressions I've had - which has saved me more than one extra visit or a few phone calls.

And, of course, if the car isn't nearby, it can save a good deal of time and money.

It absolutely isn't a guarantee, but I've always felt it's money well spent. Combined with good background research, the added knowledge helps you make a sound decision on a major purchase.

 

Seems like you let $15k of profit get away! ;>)

Ironic only the compression was good huh.

Ken

 

Nah. I figured i'd be in at $125K when I was done, and t would be a good driver, not a concours car.

And that's about the market for a really good GTS right now. I offered the guy under $60K for it, to see if he was serious, and he simply sold it elsewhere to someone who wasn't paying attention.

DM

 

Yeah, there's a lot of people with more money than brains. At least the car has a chance of being brought up to snuff if that's the case here as far as the money part goes. If not, you'll see it on eBay huh!


Ken

 

I bought both mine without PPI. First 308 bought from reputable F-car dealer. Really had no Idea, but belts had not ben done in 11 years(only about 5K miiles). What benefit would it if any to have the selling dealer do a PPI if they were not going to offer that info in sale anyway?

Second car bought out of state. Used PPI info off the 348 web site. Very helpful! Everything checked out. Brought car back and local dealer said compression was bad and needed $15K rebuild. Turns out dealer was wrong, but if he had done as poor a job on PPI as service I may have missed a chance to buy current car.

I agree with thread PPI's are SO overrated. It is dependent on person doing it and it does not protect you from anything. If you have ever driven more than one F-car, you should be able to tell right away a lemon! If not take a friend with to give on objective opinion. Save PPI for new tires or routine maintenance.

 

Could this warrantee concept be elaborated upon?
I could imagine a dealer offering a 3 month (limited) warrantee on a late model, low milage car, but surely not on just _any_ car?

 

Some dealers do offer a warranty on most all Ferraris they sell.
I bought my 88.5 328 from Ferrari of Washington with 7K miles on it in 2001. The car came with a 12 month unlimited mileage warranty which included 100% parts and 100% labor costs involved. In addition, the warranty covered "all internally lubricated parts of the engine, transmission and drive axle assembly". The only exclusion was the clutch.

 

Really? THAT is hard to believe!

I could effectively argue this topic from both sides. I paid for a ppi from a genuine Ferrari mechanic, that wasn't done very well, and didn't truly give me a good representation of the car. I wound up with a few surprises. I also had a bad case of the 'gotta-haves' and would likely have still bought the car if it had rattlesnakes camped in the tailpipe. I lived, I learned.

On the other hand, I'm aware of another car that I've known for a couple of years. It's gorgeous and perfect. It's also for sale. If I had been in the market, I likely would've bought the car because I know it and it's owner well enough to be unconcerned. I probably wouldn't have paid for a ppi. A potential buyer of this car DID get a ppi, and it was discovered that one cylinder was way low on compression. Who knew?

Bottom line, get the ppi. Know what info you want going in, and be prepared to walk away. Also be aware that the car is old, and not everything will be perfect.

I'm also like Tillman, I've never driven another Ferrari but my own. T-man, we should switch some day.