oil cooler thermostat for 308??? | FerrariChat

oil cooler thermostat for 308???

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by chrismorse, Mar 9, 2006.

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  1. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

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    chris morse
    #1 chrismorse, Mar 9, 2006
    My cooler blew out 500 miles from my home and i had a local shop make up an oil cooler bypass or substitute pipe to get me home. I have driven locally, in 50-80 ambient temperatures without a cooler, just a bypass pipe, without problems, temperatures in the 180-230 max range.

    So now, i am contemplating replacing the cooler with a used cooler, because the available replacements are 1/2 the surface area.

    After viewing Dr. Haas's oil threads, i am again impressed with the necessity of getting the oil up to operating temperatures, (180-210) as quickly as possible. I think this is particularly important with the early carbed cars because of the notoriously poor fuel mixing of the old carbs, as compared to injection, (and the reduction of oil dilution).

    The newer Ferraris have oil thermostats to bring the temp up quickly, as do most all high performance cars.

    While i look into AN fittings, AN to Metric adaptors, Aeroquip hose and thermostats, i am eager to hear varying opinions from others.

    With heated humiility,
    I remain,
    chris
     
  2. tifosi013

    tifosi013 Rookie
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    Feb 5, 2005
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    Larry Powell
    #2 tifosi013, Mar 9, 2006
    Chris;

    Besides cars, I am into machinery as a livelihood. We use
    Amot Thermal Valves all the time for similar applications. The
    entire three way valve (in, out, bypass) is readily available in
    the Bay area, with a number of thread options. The thermostat
    supplied is usually in the 160-210F range at ten degree increments.

    Also, many Lycoming aircraft engines use an oil thermostat,
    but a suitable housing would have to be obtained also.

    Your Ferrari cooler can probably be re-manufactured by a number
    of hydraulic specialty houses. Trade-A-Plane has several listed
    for a start. Not cheap, but cheaper than OEM, maybe.

    Warm oil is good for an engine. Of course, heat is also a part of the
    emissions package design on many cars, just like high coolant temperature
    is. This is especially true in later F.I. vehicles.

    Just some ideas.

    Larry
     
  3. bwassam

    bwassam Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2005
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    #3 bwassam, Mar 10, 2006
    To Tifosi013

    Larry,

    I've sent you a personal email.

    Bob Wassam
     
  4. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #4 enjoythemusic, Mar 10, 2006
    Chris, have been researching replacing the stock unit because i race the living cr@p out of the car here. Go to www.PegasusAutoRacing.com and they have the Mocal oil cooler with proper 10AN fittings, which i believe that just like stock fittings so no adapters needed and you can just unhook the stock hoses and reconnect accordingly. If you hoses look bad, this is a good time to replace them and Pegasus can supply them. As for oil cooler size, i am not sure but i THINK the right one is 19 row. Just measure the stock unit and call Pegasus. Price is about $175 and you only need to fabricate a simple mounting bracket.

    As for the oil thermo, they also have that in 10AN fitting for $94 (part # 1226-10AN) and it opens at 180F.

    Again, i believe the fitting stock is 10AN, if is it 12AN, 1/2 NPT, etc they also have coolers and thermo in those sizes.

    Hope this helps. Please remember, now is a good time to also change the oil lines if they are due for replacement and Pegasus can make those too.

    NOTE: i do not work for, or sponsored, or get comission, etc. Just that they have certain parts for racers and are a good 1 Stop Shop for some things. They may not be THE cheapest in price, but very close to it and i like to shop at 1 place for a 'system.'
     
  5. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

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    Philip
    #5 pma1010, Mar 10, 2006
    What about a heat exchanger ("coolant to oil") in place of the cooler?
     
  6. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #6 Verell, Mar 10, 2006
    Not in a 308, it needs all the cooling capacity it can get.
     
  7. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
    405
    Ferndale, WA
    #7 Matt Morgan, "Kermit", Mar 10, 2006
    I find the intercooler a fascinating idea. IMO, the oil does not require a massive amount of heat to be given off, judgeing from the cooler size and how long it takes for the oil to come up to temp.
    An intercooler would solve the problem of the oil not reaching a sufficient temp to get rid of the moisture in colder climates, a problem that many face in northern climates. Perhaps a secondary oil cooler, thermostat controlled would be the best of both worlds. It would allow the oil to be routed to the engine coolant intercooler, but would bypass it when the oil temp reached operating. In this manner, there wouldn't be any problem with the added heat overworking the radiator. JMO.
     
  8. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
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    chris morse
    #8 chrismorse, Mar 10, 2006
    Larry,
    Did a quick search of the Amot web site, looks like heavy industry stuff. Do you have any experience with automotive level stuff from this manufacturer?

    Steve,
    Funny you should mention Pegasus. Just prior to posting the question, i had reviewed the 1226-12 thermostat and it looks like the way to go. Not sure about the cooolers, have to check sizing and mounting options.

    Philip,
    Do you have any experience with oil to water exchangers? This would obviously put the oil cooling load into the "water " system, just like a bazillion automatic transmission coolers in american iron, Avoid one more thermostat and probably get the oil up to temp more quickly than a stand alone cooler/thermostat system. While I was a service manager/writer, i saw a handfull of failures that resulted in atf in the cooling system and water in the oil, screwing up both the trans and engine. Still, has strong technical merit.

    Verell,
    I was amazed that i could drive the coastal mountains, 60-70 mph, WITH the ac on and only have to moderate my driving style a bit to keep the temp under 230 with no cooler, just a bypass pipe. So, maybe with a better electric fan assist, maybe the water cooling system could handle the small extra load// What do you think?

    thanks,
    chris
     
  9. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #9 enjoythemusic, Mar 11, 2006
    No oil cooler at all? NO WAY!!! Well, maybe if you live in a cool climate and are not subjected to stop/go/stop traffic in the heat of 80F or higher. But even here in cooler climate New England during the summer in stop/go/stop the oil temps come up so i would not be comfortable removing the oil cooler. Of course the PegasusAutoRacing thermostat may be the best of both worlds.

    i agree with Verell BIG TIME here, DO NOT REMOVE THE STOCK OIL COOLER.

    Of course i know we are not discussing race conditions, because only a total blithering idiot would even think of removing the oil cooler in that situation.


    CHRIS: the mounting should be very easy as i see it. Just fab up a simple mounting bracket and hook to the same as stock location. Am debating changing the stock oil cooler to the Mocal when the New England temps begin to rise. Guess it depends on how good the stock cooler is as i was seeing 240F or so oil temps during hot late July (sunny, ambient 85F) at Lime Rock last year. My mechanic said my oil temps were normal and ok considering the ambient temps. Still, i would like to see cooler temps, around 200F would be ok.

    VERELL, what say you with stable 240F oil temps? Ok, or on edge?

    PS: Is the STOCK Ferrari system using AN10 or AN12? Many thanks.
     
  10. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

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    #10 pma1010, Mar 11, 2006
    Steve:
    When I moded my 308 for the DS, both Pound and Patterson advised -12 to account for the flow rate of the stock or external pump(s).

    Chris:
    I believe (but do not know that) the 355 uses a heat exchanger rather than a cooler.

    FYI, the F40 uses a(n oil) density valve so that the oil circulates within the engine until a certain viscosity is reached when it opens and flows to the cooler.

    Philip
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #11 mk e, Mar 11, 2006
    That's what I did. I use and aeroquip water/oil heat exchanger fitted on the return (hot) coolant hose. It probably would be best to fit on the cold side and use a thermostat, but this seems to keep the oil temp perfect, basically I use the engine thermostat to also control oil temp.

    But to Verell's point, I also have a larger aluminum radiator.
     
  12. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

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    #12 chrismorse, Mar 11, 2006
    Kermit,
    Adding a second cooler, thermostat and more hose could optimize the situation, but I am reminded of "Boss Kettering's" admonition, "Parts left out cost nothing and create no service problems".

    Steve,
    I was not advocating the elimination of an oil cooler, but rather recounting my summer difficulties in Santa Barbara. The cooler left a trail of oil from my dads house to the coffee shop where my dad and I were to breakfast prior to his first drive of my 308. Keep in mind that my wife and i had just driven 600 miles to get to his house immediately prior to the fatefull breakfast trip. I spotted the puddle and started looking for someone to repair the cooler, locate a used cooler or purchasing another cooler - all to no avail.

    The evening before i was scheduled to leave santa barbara, (back to work),an old radiator guy returned my call and said, "yeah, i might be able to help you out, so off to Santa Barbara i went with the holey cooler. He said it was unrepairable and wondered off to a pile of junk by his tool box, from which he produced an exact replica of the coolers male fitting, turned it over and said, "i could make a bypass pipe that would get you home". He said he would leave it on the fence for me to pick up in the morning so i could get an earlystart. After a bit of prodding, he said he'd take $50 for the fabed part.
    What a guy.
    So, I put it on, wondering if i was going to cook the engine driving up the california coast in the middle of summer - but i had no difficulties. The "U" shaped pipe didn't leak, oil temps ran 180-230 on the hills with the ac on and 80 degrees ambient temps. I had to turn off the ac and back off a bit on the throttle a few times on the steeper bits, but it worked!!!!
    Recounting this story is not intended to illustrate my good luck but to show how little heat load is really placed on the cooler in "moderate driving" in mild conditions. This included driving through san francisco.
    Philip,
    I also have heard that -12AN hose is the way to go given the volume of oil.
    My guess is that an Aeroquip heat exchanger will be les expensive than a new 355 part and involve less plumbing. Do you have the specs and source for the exchanger??? A brief search was incolclusive.
    Which "hot return hose" are you speaking of?? Would the heater hose take off on the left side of the engine provide enough coolant flow to do the job??? or you talking about one of the big hoses?? The heater hose is close to the old cooler location and might simplify the plumbing if it provides enough flow.
    What did you do with the left hand air scoop air???:)

    dazed, again
    chris
     
  13. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

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    #13 ham308, Mar 12, 2006
    Chris,
    coming back to your original reason for having a thermostat, - to get the oil up to temperature quicker to improve the combustion and reduce the oil dilution. I'm not sure that holds water so to speak. The combustion chamber temperatures are virtually unaffected by the oil temperature (except if the oil gets too hot) and they will be well up to normal temperature long before the oil even thinks of getting hot.

    Getting the oil itself up to temperature quickly is good for friction and lubrication for sure, but on the other hand these engines were never designed for thin modern oils anyway. Condensation in the oil shouldn't be a problem unless you really do just drive down to the shops.

    The thermostat would also be an extra pressure resistance against which the pump must always work.

    Probably just the biggest, lowest resistance, oil cooler is best.

    My .02 only. Good luck
    Richard
     
  14. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #14 enjoythemusic, Mar 12, 2006
    Agree -12AN is large, but does ANYONE know what the stock oil cooler connector size is??? Am 90% sure it is 10AN but want to make sure. Many thanks.
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #15 mk e, Mar 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
     
  16. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

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    #16 chrismorse, Mar 12, 2006
    Another consideration is the ability of a "higher capacity" heat exchanger to deal with track generated heat.
    Verell's point that a oil to water exchanger just transferrs the load to the cooling is still a consideration in warmer weather or with track use. Maybe, since my trusty old lucas fan motot is sounding like a rock grinder, it might be a good idea to upgrade the fan system.

    On balance, i am still inclined to want the oil temp up more quickly and think that perhaps an oil to water exchanger, (of higher Kcal/hr capacity) would be the best solution.

    Philip,
    I thought the heater hose flowed all of the time and just bypassed the heater cores, but even if this were the case, you are most likely right that this approach would not provide enough flow to do the job.

    Perhaps, the thermostat is a more realistic short term approach, given the list of maintenance and upgrades scheduled and in the pipeline, (360 wheel conversion to be completed this week).

    thanks,
    chris
     

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