Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Thanx! (not for sale)

All I remember is that I may fun of your name not realizing it was really your name (I did apologize) but that was not the intitial reason for our disagreement which I cannot remember.....Guess it wasn't that important.

The reason I did the lid like that was that the Carbs don't fit under the stock lid, I also wanted air flow. And YES I copied the F40 in concept but I think the 308 is far better looking then an F40.

 

I will say that I had been following Pauls IDA Weber conversion with a lot of interest for almost 2 years, and I had no idea how he was going to solve the decklid problem and I couldn't come up with much myself. I was amazed to see his solution, and think it well marries the performance requirement of high velocity stacks, filters, and high airflow with the original lines of the car in a clearly Ferrari/Pininfarina idiom.

Some people may lament it's nonoriginality, but when I look at it I am amazed at the clever aesthetic solution to an engineering requirement.

And,...we want sound files, dammit...

 

How do you do a sound file???

And Thanks Russ.....your help in the process has been quite helpful....still waiting for the 34mm chokes.

 

Many digital cameras or digitalcam corders can do it. Most digital cameras can do about 15 seconds of video/audio; you can post it on someplace like Putfile.com and link to it here.

I am sure the combo of those IDAs, stacks, cams and exhaust upon start-up would cause many to call the National Guard. I can't wait to hear it.

 

Guys, Sloan~

You know, sometimes we do things, which seem to make sense, but on later reflection, maybe dont make as much sense as we thought. Mine and Sloans main disagreement revolves around a situation with another list member, and how Sloan feels he was treated, etc, and this very thread became a catayst for that argument, and it spilled out beyond that. For that I am very appologetic.

I dont agree with everything everyone does, or doesnt do, just like many of you do the same. But that is what makes a place like this unique. Sure, there are other car forums, but we all know they are much more envious of ours, than vice versa. lol. But the point is, I cant very well accuse someone of laughing at people for fun, then do the same thing myself. It kinda invalidates it all. Like two wrongs dont make a right. Sloan, I didnt mean to dis your car. I may not like it, or agree with what you did to it, but it is your car and as such, here of all places, I should have shown more respect. Please accept my humble appology, and lets keep the fun stuff moving forward.

 

"All we are saying, is give peace a chance...."


Now, about that 4.1 and 3.5 liter...

Hey Nick, while I understand it's in early development, what are you seeing from your 3.5 literin positive results and things that need sorting?
I would be interested in the vibrations amd engine mounts with the flat crank - any change in engine note?

good luck!

 

While we have not heard from Nick's 4.0 project for a while, fans of this concept may like to know that Tate Casey of Carobu Engineering (another FChat sponsor) is putting together some larger barrels and pistons for kits ranging from 3.3 to 3.6 liters using Ferrari internals. He may be building up a 3.6 liter 308GT/4 (!).

They have a lot of proven race experience and have done similar before, and this may be a **somewhat** more practical and affordable option than the all-out 4 liter. Of course, we'll all wait to see how the development goes as folks pioneer this larger displacement upgrades.

I just think of all of that wonderful torque...

 

There have been two recent articles about Steve Demirjian’s big bore LS1 project that are very relevant to the 4-liter Ferrari project. These articles are on the newsstands now and can be found in Corvette Fever and Engine Masters magazines.

Conceptually, our two projects are very similar. They also share the design expertise of Steve Demirjian. In my opinion, one of the primary benefits of this thread is that it has given me the opportunity to introduce Steve to Ferrari owners.

In the past I have tried to make the argument the 308 block could be improved upon by incorporating superior machining techniques. During the construction of the 3.5-liter engine it was learned that Ferrari block deflected a lot as the various fasteners were torqued to specifications. One surprise was that an additional .001 or more deflection occurs when the bell housing is bolted up. This effects only the two adjacent cylinders. In point of fact, there is no way to get these cylinders true unless they are bored in place. This brings up on of the reasons for mentioning these articles. During the dyno session it was determined that this engine had the lowest amount of blow by of any engine that they have every tested on this particular dyno. A stock 308 engine built to factory spec’s wouldn’t even come close.

I have reproduced one of the articles below. As you read through it, I would hope that you will not only notice the huge amount of horse power, but also acknowledge that the methodology associated with the 4-liter project is valid.

By the way one of Steve’s blocks finished first in class at the 12 Hours of Sebring in a Viper recently. Here is the article:

BY STEVE DULCICH

"Big cubic inches are synonymous with serious power output. The big-inch formula is just the ticket to torque in abundance. Let it breathe, and high-rpm power will come in spades. Effortless, seamless power that just keeps coming-that's the promise.
Big-inch LS-family engines are normally reserved for an exclusive club. However, for the willing performance hound, the Darton Modular Integrated Deck (MID ™) system can represent an attractive alternative. More than a sleeve kit in the conventional sense, the MID kit for the LSI essentially replaces the original cast-in cylinder walls with an interlocking wet sleeve system.

The Darton sleeve technique involves machining the decks and original cylinder walls completely out, making way for the sleeves which function as replacement cylinder barrels. The modified blocks serve as a precision machined cylinder case. We have waited for an opportunity to put the capabilities of the Darton system to the test. Just the right opportunity came in the notion of building a serious LSI. The idea was to build a 'plant for race power and endurance, rather than short squirts down the dragstrip. This would be a test, both of our engine-building savvy, and the pumped-up Darton LSI-block that would serve as our foundation.

FILING IT OUT

The Darton MID system expanded our diminutive 3.893-inch LSI bores to a man-sized 4.125 inches. With the bores suitably puffed, it was time to consider the rest of the rotating assembly. Here, rather than putting a package together piecemeal, the best course of action is to secure a complete assembly. Lunati has developed an enviable reputation for high-end rotating assemblies for LS-series builds. Right in their catalog, we located precisely the parts to suit our requirements—the 427 LSI package. Here was a complete kit, waiting to flesh out our engine's internals with some of the highest quality components to grace the insides of a crankcase. Filling a stroker combination can be a complicated proposition, but with the Lunati kit, all of the specifics such as compression height, rod length, and clearances are already scienced-out. The assembly is balanced, and ready to bolt in, saving time and potential problems getting mismatched components to work together in harmony.

Included in the kit is Lunati's masterfully crafted forged 4340 steel crank. Shaped, profiled, gun-drilled and lightened, this 4.00-inch stroke brute is just the right backbone for a serious 427. Lunati's top quality Pro Billet 6.004nch connecting rods are part of the package, in addition to the light-weight forged pistons, rings, pins, locks, and bearings. With the Lunati kit, we had on hand the best of what the high performance and race aftermarket has to offer.

COMPRESSION RATIO QUANARY

Do to our race intentions; we elected to make a major change of spec to the basic Lunati assembly. The pistons in the standard 427 kit feature a -17cc reverse dome design, right on the money for a street effort, providing 10:1 to 10.6:1 compression ratio, depending on the cylinder head chamber volume. We intended to run a set of AFR's new 225cc
cylinder heads, which feature a standard 72cc combustion chamber and can be ordered factory-milled to 62cc. Since our application was geared toward track time, our engine would benefit from the added compression ratio of a flat-top piston. With this configuration, an 11.5:1 ratio can be achieved with the standard AFR 72cc chamber, and we would retain the ability to raise the ratio over a full point further by simply milling the heads. These factors fit into our program, giving a greater compression ratio at the heads' minimum chamber volume, and the ability to go to a race fuel ratio of nearly 13:1 with simple machining of the heads.

We went to Wiseco for the flat-top pistons to meet these requirements, and ordered them machined to accept their premium steel 1.2mm compression rings, and 3mm oil rings. This ring package would offer and the last word in toughness and durability. The pistons were also ordered with extra deep valve notches, to provide clearance for the aggressive valve action of a race roller cam.

Two characteristics we were after from this 427 were high output, and unwavering reliability. There are seemingly limitless choices in racing cam lobes, but an endurance engine must run continuously at high rpm, which differs from a drag race application, where the effort is full-kill, but over in a flash. We sought to have a custom solid roller cam ground for the 427 to peak at no higher than 6,500 rpm, while producing as much torque and horsepower as possible up to that point. Further, the engine would be required to live at these extended rpms for prolonged periods. After a thorough search of the available profiles, we selected the COMP Cams’ RZ Low-Lift series of endurance lobes. These profiles are designed to maximize valvespring and valvetrain life by employing a gentler nose profile on the cam lobe, limiting lift. With the available spring installed height of our cylinder heads in the neighborhood of 1.850 Inches; there is a definite limit on the amount of lift that can be employed.

Making use of COMP lobe number 4286, we had a single pattern cam custom ground with a lobe separation angle of 108 degrees. The relatively tight angle would create a strong torque surge in the mid-range, and help rein the power production to fall within our intended peak rpm range. This lobe specs out at a healthy, but not outrageous, 262-degrees of duration at 0.050-inch tappet rise, and with 0.400-inch lobe lift, theoretically delivers 0.680 inch of valve lift with a 1.7:1 ratio rocker (neglecting the loss from valve lash). That's quite a bit of lift, despite the "Low-Lift" nomenclature, but in the world of racing cams, the idea of "Low-Lift” is relative. This lift level represents about the maximum that our custom Wiseco pistons were installed on a set of Lunati Pro Billet connecting rods. Before installing the piston and rods, each assembly is propped. It is important to assign the piston and rods to a specific bore, and assemble them in the correct orientation can be achieved with the valvesprmg installed height available from our choice in cylinder heads. To complement the solid roller cam, a set of matched COMP roller lifters were ordered, along with a set of COMP's No. 953 valvesprings.

To drive the camshaft under high loads, we went with a Rollmaster two-row timing set, rather than an OEM-style single-row chain.

BOTTOM END ASSEMBLY

Before we were ready to wrench, the block and pistons were delivered to Jim Grubbs Motorsports for final finishing of the cylinder bores. The honing process must be highly controlled to provide the proper operating clearance for the pistons, while establishing a surface finish which will promote low friction, oil control, and ring life. JGM is a shop that we would confidently entrust with the task. The MID ™ system absolutely requires that a torque plate is installed while the cylinder bore is machined, and JGM was equipped to handle our big-bore LS. With the block cleaned and bagged from JGM, all that was left for us was mount it onto a stand, and line up the parts for assembly.

Since we were starting from a bare block, there were many miscellaneous parts and pieces necessary to complete the build. On that list were the front, rear, and top covers and associated hardware, as well as the block's gallery and core plugs. We tapped the Scoggin Dickey Performance center, a GM dealership familiar with the needs of the performance buyer. With those items secured, and a set of main studs from ARP, we were prepared to assemble the short-block.

The assembly sequence should always begin with a trial assembly of the major components, checking clearances,

And identifying any fitment issues that may need correction before final assembly can proceed. We were pleasantly surprised to find that the bottom-end assembly was remarkably straightforward, with all of the components bolting and falling in to place, much as in a stock rebuild. Credit much of that success to the advanced planning that went into the build, and the quality of the components from the aftermarket manufacturers involved.

THE TOP END

To supply airflow in sufficient quantity for our 427-cube LSI, we looked no further than the fully CNC-ed AFR 225 cylinder heads. With peak intake airflow registering at 320
cfm, these cylinder heads would have the capacity to generate serious output from our engine project. The AFR cylinder heads come with a standard combustion chamber volume of 72 cc, and as noted, we opted to retain that volume for a final compression ratio of 11.5:1. For a race-fuel application, we would have gone with the smaller chamber spec, though for now we wanted to reserve the capability to run pump gas. Before the heads were bolted on, we upgraded the valvesprings to a set of COMP No. 953 springs along with a set of COMP lightweight titanium retainers, and a set of
COMP hardened locks. One complication in installing the No. 953 springs was that the spring seats in the cylinder heads need enlargement to allow the large diameter springs to fit. We had the spring seats step-cut to 1.550 inches, which provided the required clearance, without making the intake port roof any thinner than stock. With the oversized Darton sleeves in our block, standard cylinder head gaskets will not work. Darton worked in conjunction with Cometic gaskets to create a multi-layered steel head gasket specific to the Darton sleeve application. These gaskets can be ordered from Cometic on a custom basis, to suit the builders bore size and gasket thickness requirements. For our application, the gaskets were ordered at 0.040-inch thick, which would give a perfect piston-to-head clearance for an effective squish-quench effect with the AFR heads.

While the cylinder heads are central to the airflow system, the intake manifold has to pull its weight and keep up. The factory "plenum-ram" intake manifold layout used on
the LSI has proven to be extraordinarily capable, providing a steep bulge in midrange torque, and excellent power high into the rpm range. We wanted to retain this style of intake manifold, and by far the highest-capacity version is the FAST LSX intake. The LSX is the only aftermarket manifold that is made of a composite material, retaining the excellent thermal characteristics of the OEM intakes. Where the LSX has an advantage over any of the similar OEM manifolds is airflow capacity. With its generously sized bell-mouth runners and increased plenum volume, the LSX offers ample flow, and having 427 cubes waiting underneath, we need all the flow it had to offer. Another plus with the LSX is that the plenum entrance can be ordered sized for an enormous 90mm throttle body. We ordered a FAST 90mm billet throttle body, and were confident that this combination from FAST would be enough to feed the beast.

The heads were installed with an ARP stud kit to provide the clamp, leaving the valvetrain as our last system to complete the long-block assembly. We considered the common stud mounted rocker system to be marginal for an endurance application with our solid roller camshaft and relatively stiff valvesprings. The ultimate in valvetrain stability is a shaft mounted system, so this is the direction we went, ordering a complete shaft-mounted rocker kit from Jesel. Jesel rockers can be ordered in a variety of custom ratios, and we specified 1.7:1. We checked the actual lift at the valve with the rockers installed, and found 0.630 inch. This is a little short of the theoretical lift of 0.660 inch net with a 1.7:1 ratio, but we had plenty of lift for our purposes, and were kind of grateful for the unexpected increase in coil-bind clearance.

ELECTRONIC ASSISTANCE

A major consideration in a high-output custom application such as our LSI is the engine management and control system. With nearly every component of our engine combination being far from stock, the decision was made to go to a full aftermarket control system. We used a complete electronics package from FAST to provide an uninhibited level of control and tuning flexibility. The FAST XFI engine management system is the latest generation of the proven FAST control system, and it would serve our needs perfectly. The items from FAST included the XFI control box, a sensor pack, crank decoder, harness, and EDIST. For the actual fuel injection and plumbing, Westech's Tom Habryzk suggested retaining a set of factory GM injectors in a 28-lb/hr rating. We flowed and matched a set of eight injectors, and fitted them to the FAST intake manifold with a pair of Wilson LSI fuel rails. The dyno's bypass fuel regulator was set to provide 50 psi of fuel pressure, and we found this combination of components to be sufficient to handle the fuel requirements.

DRY SUMP

By far the most esoteric mod in our 427 build was the ARE dry sump system. Mimicking the advantages of a dry sump realized with the LS7 engine in the new Z06, we tapped ARE for its effective aftermarket system. A dry sump system certainly adds a great deal of complexity when contemplating the installation into a vehicle, and may cross the line between dedicated race and street. However such a system is the ultimate in insurance when it comes to lubrication, providing pressurized oil under whatever g-force conditions the vehicle may be subjected to. We realize that adapting a dry sump may be far beyond the ambitions of many enthusiasts that would consider an engine upgrade. In a more restrained application the factory wet sump system would be more than adequate.

Installing the dry sump system required the dedicated ARE pan, which has fittings for three scavenge stages, and a port for supplying the pressurize oil. Since the factory oil pump at the front of the engine will no longer be used, the pump can simply be left off, and the port leading into the oil gallery tapped and plugged. Our ARE pump featured two scavenge stages, which were plumbed to the sump, and a pressure stage. For testing purposes on the dyno, we would have little trouble hanging the remote dry sump tank and assorted plumbing, though installing these components in a vehicle can be quite a task. For additional valvetrain clearance, we replaced the factory rocker covers with a set of ARE's tall cast aluminum covers.

RUNNING THE NUMBERS

We regularly test many different engine combinations, but our level of anticipation was higher than normal when we set about bolting this healthy stroker LSI to the dyno. Dressed with the dry sump system, the combination certainly looked racy, and it had the serious components inside to produce outrageous power. The only question left was just how much? With the plumbing and electronics, we allowed more setup time than normal, and carefully pieced together the systems required to finally fire this beast. With the lubrication primed, and a baseline fuel map programmed into the FAST control system, we hit the fuel pumps, tripped the ignition, and fired the mill to life. The crisp crackle at idle did little to disguise the engine's nature, and the sound lent a feeling of excitement to the control room. This was going to be one bad character.

The test procedure began with a conservative timing setting on the FAST computer inter face, which was verified via a timing light in the cell. Next, the wide-open fuel delivery was verified and adjusted, loading the engine at full throttle at ever-increasing rpm levels. Even with the timing pulled back, the torque meter display gave us a preview of what was to come. This engine was spinning the dial without mercy. Westech's Tom Habryzk is a master of the electronic tune. He worked his magic with computer commands to the FAST system and declared it was ready to pull. Our 427 didn't disappoint.

Right from the bottom of our test range at 3,000 rpm, the 427 was delivering torque levels eclipsing what a radically built stock-displacement LSI could achieve at peak. From there, the torque swelled, taking horsepower up, with it. We were simply staggered to see peak torque climb to tag the 600-lb-ft mark! At peak torque the 427 delivered over 1.4 lb-ft per cubic inch—a level of torque production that is almost never seen. In fact, the torque produced was on par with what could be expected from a very good
468-cube, big-block race engine. And what about horsepower you might ask? The high flowing induction and effective camshaft combination let the 427 cubes keep going as the rpms move upward, piling on the horsepower on the way. The peak power recorded was an outrageous 650 hp, coming in at 6,400 rpm. We had set out to maximize the engine’s power output up to the 6,500 rpm and the power curve proved that our combination hit the mark with a grand slam."

 

Interesting article.

2 questions:

1) Is either version (3.5 or 4.0) running yet?

2a) If so, are there any independent dyno numbers?
2b) If not, is there anything interesting to report?

I'd love to see a 430-killer in 308 clothing

EDIT: there was some interesting info about knife-edging a 308 crank in the "Show our Mondials" thread

 

Bolt a blower on a QV that will kill a 430.

 

Just happen to speak with Carobu today about some tubi headers and talked about their 3.5 kit after seeing this thread again - they are having their ceramic 3.5 liter V-8 barrells done in England now; hope to be running this summer/fall. Hopefully we will be able to see these two projects run side by side soon.

As an aside, Carobu just dropped a 400 bottom end in a C-4 and worked up the whole enchilada: on the dyno, a 410 hp C4 that will dust a stock daytona!

 

There are no engines running yet. Like many of you, I have been waiting since August for Nick to turn the key on the 3.5 liter project. Since then, it seemed wise to take advantage of the lesson learned from Nick’s experience with the 3.5-liter.

It should be understood that the 4-liter has always been the primary focus and very different from the 3.5-liter. This project was conceived in the mid 1980’s between Dick Mendenhall and myself. Dick is a brilliant engineer and former Ferrari factory race mechanic. He worked for Ferrari when the factory was campaigning the Testarosa. Dick and I worked together and would spend our lunches together discussing his experiences at the Ferrari factory and the technical innovation that he was a part of over the years. It was truly great stuff. Dick also worked at Ford Racing during the development of the 427. Years ago he authored several technical articles in Hot Rod type magazines of the day and had something of a cult following for the lucky few that were able to convince him to work on their cars.

The 4-liter topic came up when Dick and I were talking about a mutual friend’s Dino. I lamented, that the car was under powered. He looked at me as if I were the world’s big dumb **** and said something to the effect that “you have no idea what that engine can do.” He then posed the question, “do you thing that it would have enough power if it had 4 liters of displacement?” I told him that he was full of ****. He replied, “Been there done that”. Later, he walked me through how he was able to increase the displacement of the 308 too. Yes, you heard me right…past tense. He did it in the mid 70’s.

In 2001, I decided to make Dick’s vision a reality. Unfortunately, at the time Dick was in failing health. We tried getting things going but time had robbed Dick of this strength.

I met Steve Demirjian after my fifth attempt to explore the possibilities of having Darton make me the sleeves that I needed. For each of first four attempts I simply got blown off. Ultimately, Gary at Darton gave me Steve’s telephone number and we began putting the project together. Nick was introduced by me to Steve as someone who could help market the concept. That is how it was agreed to be put on his website.

The 3.5-liter project was a bit of an after though or the product of having access to multiple sets of titanium rods. This occurred in about year ago. I told Nick that if he wanted, I would let him have access to an extra block and sleeves. Steve and I were trying to get things done for Monterey. It became clear last May that we were running out of time. The 3.5-liter was given priority so that we would have something to put in the market place.

Time and available cash has taken its toll on Nick’s schedule. I have been basically waiting mode for the last eight or so months.

I should be clear, that there have been no technical problems with the concept, just human ones.

Mark Lewis

 

I have attached some more pictures of the LS1 project. It is truly amazing how similar it is to the 4-liter stuff.

It is hard to express how confident I am with the quality of the work that Steve produces. Those that use his services with end up with a very special short block.

As for the other 3.5 liter project? I would like to know if they are getting the extra displacement through stroke or bore. If it is bore, then aluminum sleeves with a ceramic coating are a very bad idea. I currently know of no way to bore a Nikasil sleeve in place. The method that Steve uses insures the dimensional integrity of the bores. The article in Corvette Fever magazine highlights the exceptionally low blow by numbers that Steve’s short block was able to achieve on the dyno. This is a testament to the straightness of the bores and quality of the ring package. Not only does this equate to a little more horse power, but a lot less wear and cleaner oil.

Steve and Tad have known each other for a number of years. I look forward to a little shoot out at the OK corral. If Tad knows that Steve is involved with the 4-liter project, then he also knows that he will have to bring his A game. A little competition only makes things more interesting.


Mark Lewis
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Thanks for the update Mark, and the insight as to how the whole thing got started.

 

That wasn't really an update.

 

There was the one line update:
"Time and available cash has taken its toll.... I have been basically waiting mode for the last eight or so months"

Happens to everybody. There must be near $80-100K or more in the total project ( Ti rods, new crankshafts, water pumps, machining, liners, induction, labor and parts...) by now. It will be an amazing but phenomenally expensive total package.

 

I sorry my purpose in providing an update was not to basically say “no news, but some news to follow…maybe”.

My intent was to demonstrate the value to all 308 owners of Steve Demirjian’s short block machining techniques and to make it clear that these services are affordable and available to the average 308 owner. Some have wrongly concluded that some of the stuff that we are doing is simply too expensive.

Any rebuild that replaces the sleeves would benefit from a set of bored in place sleeves. They could be installed at the stock dimensions or they could be increased all the way up to 89 mm bores. There is value to having a short block with exceptional sealing capacity and longevity. There is a benefit from not needing 3 compression rings.

The LS1 engine article was included show how terrific Steve’s sleeve setup truly is. It also says, that all of that great stuff can and should be part of any rebuild. You would end up with less blow by, less leaks, a superior ring package, state of the art head gaskets, and far greater longevity. You don’t have to add the cost of titanium rods, individual throttle bodies, EFI management systems and all of the other stuff that has been added to the 4-liter project. Please take the time to review what Steve is doing and how it is a major step forward. Since I first posted on this thread about the 4-Liter project, a boat load of LS1, Viper, Nissan, Subaru, and Honda blocks have been modified in his shop in the same manner as we are proposing for the Ferrari 308.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

I don't think anybody really doubts that you guys are doing a great job and building a couple really cool engines. The problem is that you guys are making hp the absolute most expensive way possible…seriously. The vette motor you posted is beautiful, but the truth is that I can call summit and get a complete 600hp sbc for $11k and it comes with a 24000 mile warranty. It’s not as nicey build but it makes a lot of power per $.

The 2V pistons have 3 compression rings simply because that was the state of ring design in 1975. Any modern piston for the engine would only need 2 rings like the QV and newer use. Yes it’s better to bore with the liners in, but my QV has zero leak-down in 6 of the 8 cylinders with 1% on the other 2 after 10000 hard miles using total seal rings, how much better are you going to do than zero leak?

Again, I need to say that I just love your project, but it’s a lot of work and even more money.

 

I appreciate the last post. I am not going to dispute your leak down numbers, but focus on the lessons that we have learned in this process. After all this is the main reason that we are sharing information on this thread.

In the mid seventy when the 308 engine was designed, most engine manufactures spec’d a 2 compression ring package. I really don’t think that a 3 compression ring setup as been state of the art in my lifetime. The second ring’s primarily function is to control oil. It speaks volumes that Ferrari needed an extra compression ring. This setup begs the question, “why add the extra ring?”

The single greatest area of friction in an engine is the ring package. Adding an extra ring only increases the drag on the piston assembly. Newer Japanese cars are now using steel compression rings with a 1.0 to 1.2 mm face. Some top rings are getting down to the .8 mm range. The purpose is to reduce friction, increase MPG and limit emissions. The 3.5-liter engine uses steel rings that were coated with titanium nitride. The coefficient of friction for this type of ring is much lower than a cast iron ring in addition to having a smaller cross sectional area.

In putting together the 3.5-liter engine it was learned that simply bolting on the bell housing distorted the outside cylinders over .001 of an inch. This is significant. For the sake of argument, I am tempted to drop a new sleeve in a 308 and measure the amount of deflection. What we are talking about is the basically the same logic for using a torque plate to hone cylinders. Anybody that has taken these engines a part knows that the combustion chamber and pistons are not pristine. Oil control is marginal. Some have pointed a finger at the valve guide as the problem. We believe the ring package and the straightness of the bores also play a role. It is also very possible that the extra blow by pressurizes the crankcase and contributes to leaks. These engines both burn and leak oil.

The way that Ferrari installs the sleeves is quicker and easier, not to mention cheaper. It is our contention that this is also inferior to having them hand fitted and bored in place. A side benefit is that you get a MLS head gasket to boot. This type of gaskets eliminates the need to re-torque heads. I am willing to bet that most of the 308’s out there have head stud torque numbers that are out of spec.

It is our suggestion to those that are contemplating a rebuild of their 308 to do some comparison shopping to actually weight the addition costs against the benefits. I think that some will be pleasantly surprised. Hopefully there will soon be real data to support our beliefs.

Most of the small block chevy grate motors that I have seen advertised recently are in the 500 hp range. 650 hp is a lot more. In fact if that is not enough, Steve's MID LS1 displacement limit is not 427 cubic inches, but rather 460 cubic inches and over 700 hp. If you have an LS1 motor already in your car, then the major extras are about $2,500 for better heads plus the MID kit. It is my opinion, that this is very cost effective hp.

Mark Lewis

 

I need to make some clarifications, as Mark Lewis & I have not talked in a few months until today, we have both been busy so he really had no idea on what I have been working on.

I have been working on another 308 of mine in my spare time (in between while running my 3 businesses) it’s a Grigio color with a red interior that was turbo charged, it had been sitting for the last 4 years in pieces, the engine is now completed & running great (naturally aspirated at this time, to be supercharged in the future) it features the new Mille Miglia race exhaust system, which I will post some wave files shortly on a different thread, this engine has been a priority for ME as it has been sitting for so long in pieces.

Now back to the 3.5-liter engine, my car will be in Monterey at Concorso Italiano again this year, Steve, Jeffrey & myself will be at the booth to answer all questions & there will be Dyno results at the booth for viewing. I am using the show to exhibit the WHOLE car in its next stage of development as a package. The car will be in the Monterey bay area all weekend & anyone who wishes to arrange a road test can come by the booth & we can schedule a time after the show or during the weekend.

I need to make something very clear, the 4 liter project in my opinion is going to be very costly in the way that Mark wishes to proceed with it, I wish him the best of luck with his 4.1 engine & his developments. I just do not share his same vision. I made this judgment based on talking to many 308 owners over the last year & being a 308 owner myself & knowing what it takes to create a project of such magnitude.

I will be sharing information with Mark on the findings with the 3.5-liter engine in order to help with his engine development, as that is what we agreed on. I will also supply him with a set of 4 valve bare heads in exchange for the block that I used for my 3.5 liter that I actually originally sold him, the block had a large hole on the side, Steve did an fantastic job of repairing the hole, you can not even see it!

I am in agreement with Mark Eberhart in that there are easier ways & a less costly way to make reliable HP than the way Mark Lewis is going about it, by the time Mark Lewis has to pay Steve to modify the block to accept 4 valve heads on to a 2 valve block, dry sump and all the other cylinder head modifications, such as cam followers, retainers, valve springs etc & all the development that he will have to do from scratch on the 4 valve head, the numbers do not work as far as I am concerned. I do not see a market for such a costly engine on a retail level with all the extra gear coatings, his clutch that he wishes to have built etc.

I love what Steve is doing with the blocks, whether it’s a Ferrari, Viper, LS1 or B16 Honda block, the work is AWSOME! I feel that supercharging or turbo charging a big bore block would be a great way of making some serious reliable power & keep it cost effective for the average customer. That to me is the future for these older Ferrari engines; give these engines some modern fresh internals with the MLS head gaskets so they can handle some serious boost or even a shot of NOS. That is the direction I wish to go on our 288 GTO style re-body cars that I will be starting shortly.

For example take my 3.5-liter project by the time you buy the intake set up alone, you can buy a Turbo or a Supercharger, use a regular plenum & throttle body instead of doing what I did & it will make allot more power. I have my reasons for individual throttles, I just love the look, for me that was important, and it had to give me that WOW feeling when I opened the bonnet.

The 3.5 liter engine that is in Isabella should be coming out of the car this weekend & I will separate the engine from the transaxle so it can be run on the dyno & cam timing changes can be made for maximum power. I now have a longitude mounted oil pan for testing so the engines can be set up on a dyno, Steve can now put the engines through its initial break in, the heads can then be re torqued, perform any other cam adjustments before the engine is assembled onto the transaxle, this way when it goes into the car again, it’s pretty much a driver!


We will also be incorporating a new adjustable timing belt assembly with a new style belt that Scott has been working on, (he was farther along on his development) I like what he is doing, plus with the block being machined for bigger lower drive bearings & with my cylinder heads with the shim under design & light weight cam followers, light weight tensioner bearings, it will be a long time before it needs a valve adjustment & timing belt change with the new belt design. I figure with this whole new valve train, belt, bearing set up I should be able to go 60,000+ miles easy before having to do a belt change.

I have up loaded a few pics of the actual engine, before I assembled it to the transaxle & installed the heads & installed it in the car, I do not remember posting actual camshaft figures. So here are some. Intake lift is .445 duration is 268 at .050 its 244 & lobe centers at this moment are 110 degrees. The exhaust cam spec is as follows, lift .395 duration is 266 at .050 its 242. You can see the lift & profile of the intake cam if you look closely. The valves are oversize also. Steve thinks that we can probably go with more cam, that is why it’s best to do the final development on the dyno so we can change centerlines if needed or send the cams out to have re welded for a different profile.

Many of you know since I have been in business, when it comes to 308 related products that I have either developed or co developed or have been involved in some way shape or form, I have always tried to test the items or modifications on one of my cars until I feel 100% about the product or modification, it is how my clients come to trust in modified parts that I sell or products & services that I am involved with on 308’s. This will not change. I am not going to cut corners to sacrifice quality on this project or anything else that I am involved in no matter the length of time it takes, I do it for me first, when I feel good about it, It will be avail to the public.

I hope that gives everyone an idea on what is going on with my engine.

I also feel that me not working on my 3.5 liter should have not stopped Mark Lewis from continuing with his 4.1-liter project, unless he is waiting to see the long-term outcome of my engine

For the record the only thing that has taken its toll has been TIME. There are not enough hours in a day between my Ferrari customers & my other businesses. I am sure many of you business owners know what that is like.
SALUTI
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Nick...it looks great. This might not apply to you, but on my QV, I get a LOT of blow down. I'm pumping what should be over 800 hp of air into the engine but a lot seems to go straight through since I only make about 500 hp. My plan this year is heads with better matched intake/exhaust flow, which you already have I'm guessing, and more lobe separation in the cams. I'm at 109 now, but I think I'm going to start at 114 or 116 when it goes back together. I'm not sure if the turbo guys have the same problem...but I've sure got it.

Mark - your switching to 4V heads? Couldn't get the 2V to flow the way you wanted? I'm working on flow development of my 4v heads right now with a bubby who does heads as his only job, he's pretty good. He's planning to start this week. I got him a scrap head to practice on, wall thicknesses and all that. Maybe we can compare notes or I'm sure we'd be willing to do a second set if your happy with the numbers he gets.

 

Why are you putting 4v heads on a 2v block? Just get a 4v block from T-rutlands.

 

I was thinking the same thing. This 4.1 liter project..although interesting, seems to be getting out of hand cost wise. The sleeves, the heads, clutch etc. The transmission will have to be attacked next I would think. Even though they are a tough unit to start with, I'm not quite sure how they would stand up to prolonged use with such a beast above it.

The update of the LS1 engine kinda seem null and void now that GM has it in their new Z06..making 505hp out of the box..add a few doo dads to that engine, and you would be unbeatable..In fact I'm stareing at a new Z06 right now..quite a machine.

I really would like to see this 4.1 liter enigne come to life, just to see the numbers, but will it really be that speacial compaired to other engines out there? You can get almost 1000hp out of a honda 4 cylinder now..makes me think the Ferrari engine really isn't that great of an enigne to be hot rodding.

 

Hey tom,

Yes you can get 1000hp from a 4 banger - with 30lbs of boost! Boost is where its at, they always say there is no replacement for displacement, I say boost is not only a replacement but the cats a$$. You know about the ford engines Im doing and we are getting 600+HP at the wheels from 281CID and 3 valves per cylinder with more room to grow. The short blocks can support 1000hp. These larger 308 engines are cool but without a blower or turbo, they have neither displacement or boost and the cost will be prohibitive. Take a TR engine and do this kind of R&D on it like the 4.0 and you might have something really cool. Norwoods makes 1000hp with boost on the TR engines.