WE HAVE A PROBLEM

Given I make up a significant percentage (possibley up to 33 - 50%) of that sample I can only apologise to the other, more gifted UK resident, CS owning, track drivers.

I am trying to improve but progress is admittedly slow. I could blame this on the excessive number of nappy changes required by my two sons (aged 2 and 6 wks respectively) but prefer to let them grow up full of confidence and will thus admit full responsibility.

 

Walter can drive any car, he is a master, period.

 

The F430 just looks a hundred times better though.

 

I wouldn't say hundred times better, like what Cavallini said, the 997 is quite a nice looking car and i really like the look of the new 997GT3, this is probably the closest a 911 has come to challenge the V8 Ferrari's.
One thing i find quite amazing though is that the GT3 and 430, their power/weight ratio is not that dramatically different, both reasonably lightweight and rwd, with one major difference of rear engine vs mid engine. Now the amazing thing is that with rear engine (which is a inherently flawed design), Porsche has done mircales with it and made a car faster (around the track) than a pure bred mid engined Ferrari, this i think is quite something.

 

Faster around the Ring (maybe), slower around Hockenheim (maybe). There really is nothing seriously wrong with a rear-engine design, as Porsche has proven. All engine placement options have compromises associated with them. Mid engine placements, while considered optimum for experienced drivers, often give newbies fits with the low polar moment propensity for very quick reaction to steering inputs - what an expert likes can make an inexperienced driver very nervous. I've heard a lot of people call the 360 "nervous" and "twitchy", and this is simply not true (assuming correct alignment, etc).

Gary

 

Indeed. It shouldn't surprise that Porsche's top of the line's are at least a little faster than Ferrari's V8, especially the track special version and one with twin turbos.

The back and forth between Ferrari and Porsche, although Ferrari would never admit it, is very good for both. And with Lambo thrown in the mix it makes for a very, very competitive environment which means we, the buyers, win.

Personally, I think Ferrari or Maserati could produce another model around $100K to compete directly with Porsche et al.

OR they could offer exclusive uprgades for current and previous models to dramatically improve performance. Why leave so much money on the table for the aftermarket companies?

They could give it some chic Italian name and wouldn't have to spend a dime on manufacturing capacity. The enhancements could be performed at the local dealer with all the parts coming from Italia or through Ferrari licensed suppliers. Things like ECU chips, bigger brakes, stiffer springs, exahust systems, and rims, all Ferrari exclusive/licensed.

They could also offer package trips to Italy for those who wanted to pay to have the upgrades performed in Italy and combined with a vacation and road trip through Europe.


Forza,


Cavallini

 

Gary(SF) You nailed it. The rear engined Porsche has an advantage under braking and at corner exit can accelerate sooner than the front or mid engined car. Add 40 years of development by Porsche and you get a pretty good package. It has been called a triumph of engineering over physics.
The mid engined car on the other hand, can carry more speed through the corner. It makes for very entertaining racing.

Rgds,

 

If you ever need to start a fight, quote 'Ring times. I would like to make a few comments:

1. Someone in this thread gave Ferrari credit for the new 911 variants being better. I think that's a bit of a stretch. I don't know that Porsche considers Ferrari a competitor and I can't imagine that there's alot of cross-shopping between the brands. The prices are just too far apart.

2. The 430 a "cruiser"? That's just silly.

3. Each company developes their cars for the audience they (the car company) believes they have. The Z06 is a perfect example of this. I'm certain that Chevrolet marketing enjoys how competetive this car is with Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche,etc from an overall performance standpoint, but only the most rabid bowtie marketer thinks that people are having some kind of mental "jump ball" that goes: "hummmm, should I get a 430 or a Z06?"

A final thought: It seems to me, as someone who does not and probably will never be able to own any exotic, that Ferrari has not had any competitor in the last 30 years. Porsche is not, because of price and lack of exclusivity, Lambo is starting to become one, but IMO, was not in the past because of their myriad of problems. So, as a humble corvette owner who is lucky enough to have a friend with a 2003 575F1 and a 2005 430F1, my place is set: "Hey Tom, it's Jimmy, do the Ferraris need some exercise??? No problem, I'll be there in 15 minutes." Falling on the grenade is tough duty but I'm happy to do so! Maybe I'll scribble my impressions of the 2 cars in a new post instead of this partial hijack (sorry).

Jimmy

 

Actually Ferrari and Porsche have a lot of respect for each other and they usually send each other one of their cars.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this is a "respect" issue between the 2 companies as it is surely not. My point was that the person that can buy ( and wants) a Ferrari is probably not comparison shopping a GT2 or 3, Twin Turbo or any other Porsche. He's buying a Ferrari!

Jimmy

 

i have owned 6 porsches in the last 7 years and i really loved them. However, every Porsche owner deep down in the bottom of their heart aspire to one day take ownership of a prancing horse. I myself was on of those and have been lucky to be able to purchase one of the last cs's produced. The only exception is probably the owners of CGT- but that is a very limited group of people who probably have owned Ferrari's and have multiple cars in their collection.

Nothing wrong with Stuttgart made machines but honestly, how many Ferrari drivers dream of trading their car in for a Porsche.

 

So True! there is alot in that statement.....the exception being the CGT of course.

 

I don't want to oversell on this issue but honestly speaking have you ever looked at a Porsche owners face when he looks at your Ferrari. You can sense the envy that if it weren't for a number of factors ( financial, family etc) he would go right down the F car dealership and trade his Porsche in.

I admit to be one of the ex P car owners and deep down in every P car owners heart he / she knows that they want to aspire to F car ownership

 

Bulls-eye!

 

...you can say that again!

 

And there ya go, perfection in perspective!

There are many aspects & qualities to enjoy about owning & driving a car. Sure, it's nice to feel like you're driving the fastest bad-boy on the road...but speed (on or off a track) is merely one aspect to judge a car by. Is the hottest woman the one who can dehydrate you the fastest?...or the one who has everybody's eyes on them as they walk down the street?......

Besides, I'm convinced sooner or later Lotus (another marque again emerging from a foggy past) will drop a bad-ass turbo engine in the Exige and suddenly be the quickest of the quick around a track.

Eh, who cares....

 

I don't think the 9 second difference is an accurate reflection of the difference between GT3 and 430. We'd have to know track conditions and a variety of other factors. In addition Rohl has every incentive to make the Porsche look better; and he's far more experienced behind the wheel of the rear engined car. The only relevant comparison is both cars at the same time with identical drivers with no agendas..which isn't possible. I'd say its safe to assume that the 430 would be significantly faster around Fiorano than the Porsche with the Ferrari test driver at the wheel.

 

Very true, especially about Rohl's clear "orientation" and the similar results that would come from a similar test at Fiorano with Dario Benuzzi at the helm.

We'll see objective comparisons all over the place by the summer.


Forza,


Cavallini

 

Same old argument...P v F cars...

Like many here, I've owned a number of Porsches over the years. They've been fantastic cars, including the Cayenne T that I now drive every day.

I've owned only one Ferrari--my 550. It too is a fantastic car.

Each marque is different and carries strengths that the other doesn't.

Is there an envy factor for Porsche owners? Probably, but in my experience its more about exclusivity and mystique than performance. And, once you've had both, I think it disappears quickly.

IMO Porsche's perform and do so both more reliably and at a much better price point. Ferrari carry style, exclusivity, and a certain panache that gives it instant recognition and wow factor esp to all those that don't have one, whether its a big 12 or high revving 8.

And face it, the pricing differential between them is both a negative AND a positive--its a big leap and much different to to drop $200k on a car instead of $100k so if you have a Ferrari, you're instantly in a different league that Porsche owners know better than anyone else.

To follow on several lines within this thread, however, I'm very excited about the new GT3 and its results. Its going to be a great car and very exciting to drive. I'm really looking forward to it.

To be honest, I put my name in for one at the exact same time I put my name in for a F430. I'm first on the list at my Porsche dealer and expect it by Sept 06. As for the F430, I'll be lucky if it comes through by late Spring 07...that in itself probably says something.

But, I'm also very much looking forward to owning an F430. However, I do sincerely wish Ferrari would find a way to pull their dynamics closer...no matter what excuses are made and what individual strengths these cars may carry, 9 sec is a BIG jump between each company's performance "standard".

IMO, its pretty embarrassing and Ferrari needs to do something about it quickly.

 

Amazing. After reading this lengthy thread which points out the F430 posted a faster time at Hockenheim than the GT3, and after all the comments about how variable the condition can be at the Ring, and how 9 sec at the Ring equates to about a second a lap at a normal length circuit, you still think it's "pretty embarrassing" for Ferrari??

Or did you just hit "reply" without reading the thread?

Gary

 

Nine Seconds is nine seconds. Not 2, not 3...not 5. The Ring is considered by many--if not all elite performance manufacturers--as the most representative and "gold standard" for sports car performance. Be honest, the best reviewers (Evo or Auto Sport) don't use Hockenheim or Spa for their results, they use the Ring.

And, 9 secs is a big jump. To say differently is simply an excuse.

Assuming the Hockenheim story is correct, I'd still venture to say that a 997 GT3 will put a F430 away at almost all track venues--just like the old GT3 generally did to the 360 all over the sports car world.

One of the major points of my thread was that I don't find that necessarily surprising. Porsches are traditionally better sports car racers--and from my knowledge, generally better at the Ring. Its one of their strengths. Ferrari has its own strengths as I noted and they are ones which I personally enjoy.

The other point I was trying to convey, maybe poorly, was that Ferrari and Porsche pride themselves as building the best "generally available" production sports cars in the world. They each have a car which flys as their global show piece for performance.

IMO, Ferrari is a fantastic marque but its performance should be closer no matter if its style and mystique is considered by most as much better. And, 9 secs says they have real work to do--either in a CS version or by putting more effort at finding ways to close the gap in the next model round.

IMO, one way might be get their cars down in weight since their engine/power train systems seem on paper to be superior. I'm sure there are others.

 

Every day is a good day! Just a suggestion: Perhaps you might want to take a deep breath and read prior posts before you hand out advice? For example, is it being "a little harsh" to question the maturity of GT3 drivers as "nBerry" did? I think that's a little harsh, don't you?

BTW, the wheels on your 360 are incredible! Stunning car! [/QUOTE]

Maybe your right.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Surely you aren't saying 9 sec on an 8 min lap is the same as 9 sec on a 90 sec lap. The critical gauge for most racers is seconds per minute of lap time, and in the case mentioned it's about *one*. And when you factor all the variables of Ring times I frankly can't imagine anyone getting excited about these times. And yes, Sport Auto did have a faster time for the F430 at Hockenheim than they had for the GT3. I know of two FChatters who own both GT3 and F430, they both track extensively, and they both say the F430 is the faster track car. The 997 GT3 remains an unknown quantity. I assume it's going to be faster than the 996 GT3, but not a lot of data out there yet.

Gary

 

Of course it'll be faster than the old GT3--the 997 has more hp, more torque and better mid range out of corners, better (uprated) tires and the weight is basically identical.

I'm not trying to argue the relative merits of the cars. I like them both and hopefully I'll own both by next summer.

Try to think of it the other way around--and yes, I understand its terribly theoretical and totally unscientific, but simply exptrapolate 9 secs in 8 min to the 24 hrs of Lemans. Its considered the world's premier sports car race.

My math is a bit out of practice but wouldn't it be: 24 hr*60min=1440 mins divided by 8 min per lap=180 laps*9sec=1620 sec divided by 60 sec=27 mins?

Not only could you have a cup of coffee, you could have lunch during the difference in arrival times. No matter how you cut it, the difference is substantial and would be embarrassing to watch.