Supercharged 308GTB almost ready to go | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Supercharged 308GTB almost ready to go

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by wildegroot, Apr 7, 2006.

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  1. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
    Full Name:
    Wil de Groot
    Russ,

    Have you tried looking in the aerospace industry?

    Burns Stainless sells oval stainless exhaust tubing and bends. They sell round aluminum tubing and bends and maybe have a source for oval aluminum tubing? You should check with Aircraft Spruce too. You could maybe run rigid tubing with silicone hose connections.

    Wil
     
  2. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    12,093
    Wayne, NJ
    Full Name:
    Clyde E. McMurdy
    Very, Very nice.
    I saw your 308 at your first autoshow as you pushed her across the field.
    Doesn't seem like she'll need much pushing this time :).
    Count me in for the next show. I'd like to check her out.
     
  3. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
    Full Name:
    Wil de Groot
    Thanks. Yeah, they'll be repainted before the car hits the road. I bought them used from a Porsche recycling yard in Los Angeles. They're the same calipers as on an F355 but much cheaper when they don't have the Ferrari sticker on them.

    Wil
     
  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,812
    The twilight zone
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    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    Beautiful! Simply beautiful. I love it.

    Have you done anything with the clutch yet?
     
  5. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
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    Wil de Groot
    #30 wildegroot, Apr 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Steve,

    I just took some pictures.

    #1 Side view. You can see the 308 pedal box with a 1/4" aluminum plate sanwiched under it holding the Tilton tandem remote master cylinders. The top plate acts as a cover for the pedal box inspection hole and also as a brace for the master cylinder mount. I'm in the middle of machining an aluminum spacer block to fill in the gap. All the aluminum is 6061 T6. The hole in the side of the pedal box is where the power brake booster was removed. That will get an aluminum cover.

    #2 Top view. The connecting link between the pedal and the Tilton piece, machined from 3/4" steel hex rod, is visible here. It should be aligned better but with no clutch pedal in place right now, the brake pedal slides back and forth on its fulcrum shaft. The rod connecting the two master cylinder push rods is threaded. Turning the rod moves a bearing side to side to change mechanical advantage left to right (front to rear master cylinders) to vary the brake bias. This is a typical race car bias mechanism and works very well.

    #3 Bottom view. Plate is unfinished. Link with 1/2"-20 LH rod-end bearing and extension welded onto pedal visible here.

    #4 Tilton remote brake bias control cable kit.

    #5 Brake fluid reservoirs. Each master cylinder comes with the choice of a large and a small reservoir and whichever reservoir you choose can be mounted directly on the master cylinder or remotely on a special bracket which is included as is the hose and a choice of master cylinder out-put fittings for rigid brake line or AN braided hose.
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  6. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
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    Wil de Groot

    Thanks Mark,

    So far, stock flywheel and pressure plate with Kevlar pumpkin tooth lining on the disk. I'll see what happens. The clutch is easy to change. The problem with a lot of multiple disk clutch set-ups is that they don't hold up well in traffic. I want to track the car but I want to use it on the street too. It's all a big experiment as you well know.

    Wil
     
  7. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
    405
    Ferndale, WA
    After looking at it a couple of hours ago, and again now, I am still speechless. I haven't been speechless after looking at a car as long as I can recall.
    OMG!.. Thank you for sharing this piece of art with us.
    Still stunned. I'll try to ad more later.
     
  8. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
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    Wil de Groot
    Hello Clyde,

    The next EXOTICARSHOW is on September 24 so yeah, I certainly hope I won't be pushing it then. We only just got the date a few days ago and haven't started advertizing it yet. Last August 14 was too hot. We nearly had a riot on our hands with people saying " just give me my damned trophy to I can find a place with AC!" I look forward to seeing you there!

    Wil
     
  9. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
    1,426
    Tequesta, FL
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    Paul Delatush
    Wil,

    Absolutely gorgeous. Are you still going to run the Electromotive management system? If so, I would be happy to come down and “tune” with you. What size injectors are you running? How much boost are you planning to start with? (Of course, we all know you will end up way past that…).

    -Paul
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,812
    The twilight zone
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    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    I had a kevlar disc and it was fine with my non-intercooled 10 psi system. It held for a couple weeks on the 15+ psi intercooled system until I mistakenly pulled away from a stop sign in 3rd gear and I let the clutch slip a bit....after that it was finished. I'm guessing it will be just fine ....as long as you (unlike me) remember to shift into first when you stop :)

    Really nice job though. You know you've pretty much shamed me into fixing all the little things I cobbed a bit rushing to get mine done. I've been talking about cold air intake plumbing for 5 years......

    I've also been eyeing 996 calipers for a couple years now. I've had myself convinced I needed the 996TT version and bid on a coup-le sets on ebay, but they went a bit higher than I was ready to go. You probably got it right with the standard 996 (I think the 998S are the same) though....they're really nice calipers without needing the big heavy TT rotors.
     
  11. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
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    Wil de Groot
    Hello Paul,

    Yeah, the Electromotive ECU and all the sensors are in the car. We just need to wire it all up and do the mapping. Once we have the system basically set up I'd love to compare notes. We just installed the same system in a Diablo and a Countach but that data won't do me much good.

    I can't remember what size injectors I put in there. I'll check.

    According to the pulley sizes I should wind up with about 10 PSI. I probably will try raising the boost but I wanted to see what I could do with totally stock engine internals. I think any increase in boost will require better pistons. This is a Koenig 308 but when I took the engine appart I didn't find any parts you wouldn't expect to find in a 77 Euro 308 engine.

    Did you see the photos of my master cylinder set-up? Looks familiar doesn't it?

    Wil
     
  12. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
    1,426
    Tequesta, FL
    Full Name:
    Paul Delatush
    Wil,

    I think you will be happy with the Tilton brake setup. I know I am. With the right pads, you'll be able to stop on a dime.

    Do you have forged pistons in the engine? I don't recall what the 77 Euros had.

    Where do you plan to mount the ECU? I was warned by Electromotive NOT to put it in the trunk or engine compartment. Ventilation issues. I mounted my behind the passenger seat on the rear baulkhead and drilled a large hole through to the engine compartment, fitted a large radiator hose through for chafe protection and then ran the wires. I did mount the related fuse block in the trunk above where the stock ECU was housed. The rest of the wiring was easy but time consuming as you well know.


    My engine and trans are now all over my garage in little boxes and bags. The pictures of your car have inspired me to get down there and start cleaning the parts. Thanks for the motivation.

    -Paul
     
  13. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    18,128
    Savannah
    Wil, your GTB is simply amazing. you must give details as you test and fine tune it.


    WOW!
     
  14. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
    Full Name:
    Wil de Groot

    Paul,

    No, I'm pretty sure I have cast pistons. I wanted to see what I could do with totally stock engine internals. Forged pistons are on the list for the next upgrade, possibly with an even lower compression ratio.

    The Electromotive ECU is mounted behind the driver seat along with the fuse box.

    I do have other components in the trunk, such as the fuel filter, the intercooler expansion tank and the coolant recovery tank, which shouldn't get too hot so I hole-sawed a long row of 1" holes along the botom of the rear trunk bulk-head, hiding behind the rear bumper and I have a fresh air duct into the trunk from a scoop under the car. The stailess steel exhaust system will throw off less heat into the trunk than the OEM system did and the low restriction "mufflers" will help in reducing heat build-up too.

    I also feel that removing the (oil to air) oil cooler will help a lot too. As far as I'm concerned, that thing just blew hot air back into the engine compartment, straight at the dry-sump tank and trunk front bulk-head.

    I have the biggest (oil to water) Setrab oil cooler I could get, mounted on the engine compartment front bulk-head. This will bring my oil temp up quicker and will hopefully keep the oil temp the same as the coolant temp. The more efficient aluminum radiator should be able to handle the extra heat.

    Good luck with your engine assembly.

    Wil
     
  15. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
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    Wil de Groot
    Thank you, I'll do my best.

    Thank you and everyone else who responded for the interest.

    Wil
     
  16. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
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    Wil de Groot
    Mark,

    Thanks for the feed-back on the clutch. It's much appreciated.

    Like I related to someone else on this forum: I bought the calipers, and rotors too, off of a low miles wrecked Porsche at a recycler in Los Angeles.
    I originally contacted Wilwood but they had such an uncooperative sh*t attitude that I gave up on them. I also didn't find what I wanted on E-bay.

    the brakes I have now should work just fine. The 308 is such a little car compared to a lot of the newer stuff, a reasonable amount of performance from the engine, brakes, suspension, tires, etc should go a long way to making this a real fun car to drive.

    Wil
     
  17. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,931
    CA and OR
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    pit bull

    Awesome!!!
     
  18. Shark49

    Shark49 Formula Junior

    Mar 31, 2005
    773
    Boone, NC
    Full Name:
    Nathan
    uhhhhh holy sht that is awesome.
     
  19. TURBOQV

    TURBOQV Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2003
    838
    NV and Utah
    Congrats.

    Well done. I love it.

    You might want to consider a Norwood clutch for all that power? You will fry most clutches for sure with all that power. Aluminum flywheel will make it rev quicker as well. I noticed a big dif. Amazing stuff Wil. You will eat lots of unsuspecting cars for breakfast lunch and dinner.

    Keep up the good work.

    Paul
     
  20. johng

    johng Formula 3

    Oct 23, 2004
    2,298
    northern va
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    john g
    wicked wicked motor. nice.
     
  21. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
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    Wil de Groot
    Paul,

    Thanks,

    This whole thing is an experiment. I wanted to see what could be done retaining stock internals, mostly, but I'll probably be experimenting with some more radical components later. Unfortunately, what works on the track is not always suited to the street. What I like about supercharging is that at low speed the engine is still very docile and driveable. A lighter flywheel will probably effect that negatively. I appreciate the input though.

    Wil
     
  22. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
    1,426
    Tequesta, FL
    Full Name:
    Paul Delatush
    "I hole-sawed a long row of 1" holes along the botom of the rear trunk bulk-head, hiding behind the rear bumper and I have a fresh air duct into the trunk from a scoop under the car."

    Wil,

    Would it be possible to post some pictures of the above? If that's not practical, then let me know when I can come down to you shop and take a look. Also, where did you get the Kevlar clutch (if you do not feel comfortable posting that, then perhaps you can email me).

    -Paul
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,812
    The twilight zone
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    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    I had exactly the same fear. When I installed the tilton clutch I though about a custom and very light flywheel to go with it, but decided to stick with the stock flywheel. The new clutch is a 2" smaller OD and less than 1/2 the weight of the stock set-up so together with the stock flywheel, the total rotational inertia is about 1/2-2/3 what stock was. Personally I don't notice any difference is anything pulling away from stop signs or in the way it revs...except the clutch stopped slipping. I guess my thought is that a light alum flywheel with a heavy stock pressure plate would be about the same.

    I will add this, to leave the line at the autocross when the car was all stock, I would drop the clutch/throttle to the floor at 5000-5500. When I bump the power to 300 rwhp, it like to leave the line at 4000-4500 throttle to the floor. With 420 rwhp and the lighter clutch it likes to leave the line at 3500-4000....but in 2nd gear and about 2/3 throttle. 1st gear is won't tolerate more than 1/2 throttle and is nearly impossible to a good, clean launch in. It's fine on the street at low power, but for a faster launch, 2nd gear is the ticket. It has plenty of troque to pull away smoothly in 3rd gear as well....I didn't even notice unitl it was too late and may kevlar clutch had gotten hot - which it hated. I guess my point is that as your hp/torque go up, I've found find the flywheel weight becomes less important in the overall picture.
     
  24. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
    Full Name:
    Wil de Groot
    Paul,

    It's pretty well impossible to see the holes in the trunk. If you slide your hand down the inside of the rear bulk-head/tail-light panel you should find a step before the trunk floor (The later cars hve a different trunk interior so that step may not be there in your case - I can't remeber). I cut the holes in the vertical surface of that step from the outside with the buper off the car. I re-carpeted the rear bulk-head so that the holes would be hidden but not covered when looking into the trunk. I also riveted a sheet aluminum baffle behind the holes, spaced out about 1", to prevent flooding the trunk if I hit the bumper with a spray of water while washing the car. The holes are pretty well invisible but it's just a 30" row of maybe 12 holes in the verical metal at the back of the trunk that come out behind the bumper.

    You can see the 3" diameter aluminum inlet pipe in the bottom photo of the first series of pictures I put up. It's above and left of the right rear upper control arm. You can also see a sliver of it in the bottom right of the first picture. I have 3" silicone brake duct hose that will go to a scoop in the area under the right fuel tank. Those pieces are still on the bench. The scoop and hose came from Pegasus Racing but I can show a picture of those pieces.

    You're very welcome to come and look.

    If you want kevlar lining on your clutch disk, send it to me and I'll take care of it.

    Wil
     
  25. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,522
    Frenchtown NJ
    Full Name:
    Wil de Groot
     

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