Advice needed - is my shop being straight with me?

I don't like the getting closer idea or just letting the car go to waiver. You are over double the HC limit. They had to know the car wouldn't pass if it didn't pass on their machine. Have they done a leakdown or compression check to see how your valves are (burnt valve)? Was the car initially running lean or rich? (Was the fuel dist. changed because of low or high pressure). Most elevated HC readings are due to fouled plugs, a bad plug wire, low or high fuel pressure, burnt valve, dirty or leaky injectors, a vacuum leak or bad O2 sensor. It's just guessing without seeing the car but I would not let the car go back to the inspection station without a confident YES IT WILL PASS. Otherwise take it elsewhere. Good luck!

 

Hi Jeff,

I can't comment on your shop's diagnostics, but for $300 likely you had a rebuilt fuel pressure regulator installed. New regulators are currently in the $6-700 range, and I'm not even sure new fuel distributors are even still available (but they would be similar, if not more expensive).

Mixture for the K-lambda jetronic (used on the USA 328) is adjusted by reading the CO level upstream of the convertor; have to check my manuals but as I recall 0.7-0.9% is correct. The mixture is adjusted with O-2 sensor disconnected and vacuum hole (for adjustment wrench) plugged. There's only a single fuel distributor on the 328, so I have difficulty understand - unless they're reading from the exhaust manifold sampling tubes - how a "bank" can run rich or lean unless there's an ignition issue.

Common "failures" with the 328 warm-running include:

* "Protection relay" in the passenger rear trunk
* Fuel accumulator not holding pressure after shutdown, leading to difficult hot restart

Most of the components are pretty reliable. The original steel injectors have been superceded by newer brass versions (but unless yours are clogged they should work fine), fuel pressure regulators have been reported on this board to stick, the fuel inlet from the tank can clog, fuel pumps can fail, and of course the fuel filter needs periodic replacement. And if a particular part isn't working within spec and has an electrical ground, always clean and retest.

Now, as has been mentioned, the ignition system is a more likely culprit. Plugs can foul, extenders can arc, wires can fail, coils (or controller modules) can fail, TDC/RPM sensors die, and always check the cap for oil leaking past the seal.

JRV has a good description of setting up FI on a Testarossa using gas analyzer on his website. Here's the link:

http://www.*****************/discus/messages/3111/4006.html

FWIW, here's the numbers from my 328 (post-(original )cat - as emissions tested):

HC 33
CO 0.05%
CO2 15.3%
O2 0%

all of which are far below the standards for passing (Texas). I suspect you have a true problem and not just a tuning issue.

Hope this helps out a bit. Brian Crall and others on thi board have a wealth of knowledge beyond mine.

Carl

 

Ask to see his 4 gas annalyzer in use on your car. Observe where he puts the probe. Report back. If he does not have a 4 gas..you will not slove the problem with this car.

 

Was the car fully warmed up when tested? BTW both of my 328's have always passed very easily.

Dave

 

Wow that is too bad for sure....sad to hear it did not pass. I just bought a 1989 328 GTB that has been sitting for 15 years (15 well cared for years....with oil changes every few years) and I purposely took my 328 into California Emissions testing prior to the major servie and it passed with flying colors. The engine was barely warm when I took mine in for testing.....a 5 minute ride on local roads, never got out of third gear........Hope you get it straightened out soon with out sepnding too many dollars.

 

I'm with Carl on this one. A fuel distributor would need that amount for the down payment, if you could find one. Possibllly a fuel regulator at that price. Did you get the old part? Or get to see it? A good shop will give you the bad part, and/or show you where it is on the car. A new part looks new, compared to the rest of the motor. Rebuilt parts look new as well.
The control pressure regulator, often refered to as the WUR, or Warm Up Regulator is to the right of the plenum, just above the cam cover (close to the oil fill). It will have 2 hoses that go to the fuel distributor, and 2 to the throttle body. check it out.
Look in the archives, and you will find pics of it and compare.

 

Agree with Carlrose here - these are all likely culprits and basically, you've got a semi-material problem as that is a very high reading. In other words, it's not just a single bad plug wire or something very basic. Definitely check to see if the O2 sensor is working properly as if not this generally results in a rich running condition that will get you about those testing results. Ask me how I know.

Good luck and persist!

 

I think he is referring to the WUR. Plus, don't worry about the 02 sensor too much. I passed emissions on my QV without an 02 Sensor. My HC was approx. 45 and CO 0.0. Focus on your fuel pressures and the WUR right now.
I would like to see your fuel pressures. Sometimes WURs that are rebuilt are always correct. Most of the time they are rebuilt on the looser end which means they allow the car to run rich. They want the car to start up ASAP with your rebuilt regulator. IMO since you are running very rich I think your WUR is out of spec unless the plunger is stuck in the fuel dist. I don't think anything else could cause this type of richness.
Let me know your fuel pressures and I will let you know if they are in spec.

 

Battman, your mechanic may be pricing 2 cats, but your car only has 1...

Good luck with your diagnostics!

 

This is typical. The "mechanic" starts changing parts in a a haphazard way "hoping" he eventually changes the right part, but not TOO soon since you're paying for it. And lie about what's going on with your car.

You need to find a mechanic who knows your car and will test things out before spending your hard earned money for you. You could have anything from a weak spark, to bad accumulators/regulators, bad valves. etc. etc.

These are complicated engines and require someone familliar with them; but more than that you need someone who will take a systematic approach before blindly swapping parts. My advice is find a new shop.

Ken

 

New shop. These guys don't know what they're doing.

FWIW, you can't tune a bank on a 328, so if one bank is running different to the other, 95% likely you have either an ignition or a cam timing fault, NOT fuel injection fault.

 

Sounds like the shop doesn't know what they are doing.

The Bosch system is pretty common, look around for a place that works on older European cars. There's usually a guy there that really knows the CIS system

 

5 x HC is not a bad cat, smog probe is placed precat, lose these guys.

When fuel dists go bad they leak thats it otherwise put some Techron in the tank to clean the fuel inj system.

High HC is a misfire, bad plugs, dirty dist cap, wires, HC is unburned fuel.

Was the high HC at idle or 2500rpm?

 

Smog around here is measured at the tailpipe, don't know how they do things in Milwaulkee

 

Clarification: "Smog" probe --- for adjusting the mixture --- is placed pre-cats.

The "tailpipe" test by the state should be a slam-dunk. Once the mix is set right, it should pass (idle) even before the cats or Lambda circuits get involved.

The biggest problem with passing a "rolling road" test is getting the car up on the rollers.

It's getting the mixture right in the first place is the issue. If your shop is planning to reduce a 5.0 to 2.0 by using cats -- then get another shop.

20 year old cats mostly convert excess HC to excessive heat (and to a "slow down" light on the dash.)

 

Jeff, for clarity,

* How long have you had the car?
* Has it ever run "properly" and passed emissions previously?
* If so, has anything been done since that time? (i.e. belt change, etc.)

Phil brings up a very good point about cam timing. I had also briefly considered mentioning compression-testing the motor, but...simple things first. Before we delve into too much of the technical aspects, what is your mechanical ability/schedule to repair? I.e. should we be be instead reccomending a good shop in your area?

Carl

 

Well, at least you'll have the time to study the problem!

With only basic mechanical abilities it's going to be difficult to check and then adjust (if necessary) the WUR and fuel distributor. These are not simple tests and adjustments to make for the basic DIYer. So, net, I'd start out with a) checking the simple things, and b) educating yourself on the CIS system. Regarding b), there is a very good Bosch CIS book out there produced by Bosch that you can buy from Amazon. Regarding a), I wouldn't mess with the WUR, fuel pressure or fuel distributor just yet as you might make it worse rather than better at this point, particularly if you don't have the HC sniffer equipment. So, focus instead on the O2 sensor and see if replacing that makes a difference (it may well solve your problem, ask me how I know!) and then take a look at the condition of the plugs/cap/rotors/plug wires/plug extenders. Good luck and persist!

 

I concur with Cliff here, start at the bottom and work up. Also, the O2 sensor can really mess things up if its off, and I have to agree, the shop didnt seem to have a handle on the problem.

I would add, that you may want to start with a good 30K service, you can DIY if you have basic tools, and check/put the cams in proper alignment (degree wheel), check valve clearances, and do a leakdown test. Then you are starting fresh with a good baseline. Once the engine is correct, go after the ignition, as has been suggested, and make absolutely sure its at 100%. At least then, when you look at the fuel system you wont be having to wonder if something else is "off".

 

One point: on the 328, idle mixture is set "open loop" -- with the O2 sensor disconnected.

A healthy 328 engine should have a clean idle without cats or lambda. The lambda loop on the 328 mostly cuts in when your chuggling along in 30 MPH traffic at maybe 2200 rpm. (Sensitive drivers can feel the "surging" as an older O2 sensor oscillates through its cycle.)

CIS predates OBD (sorta: my '88 Celica had self diagnosing EFI while my '88 328 has CIS that "never goes wrong" (sic)). The CIS system was pretty slick for its day, but when they break, the only way to diagnose them is to check every part, one by one by one. (Early L-jet systems had this issue, too -- and even more parts to check.)

CIS was the default option for getting a 308i into the US, but by the 328 series, there were enough add-ons to make you remember Rube Goldberg.

But the parts are pretty reliable. So you need to start with a leak down, to check the health of the basic lump, before moving on to the fiddly bits.

 

This is really good advice. The rule of thumb is don't even TOUCH the fuel system until you have the mechanical and electrical accounted for. So many of my carb car brethern complain about running rich and spend forever tweaking the carbs with no results, not realizing the fault is elsewhere. A FI car is the same principle. Check the timing, valves etc. first, then the distributor, wires, coils, rotor, etc. second, and only THEN address fuel mixture issues.

Ken

 

Of interest, on the tesatrossa they never do the rolling tests. I always point out that the engine is in back, and the radiators are on the side, and unless they can provide adequate cooling, there is no way to road test it. They check it at idle, and thats it...never had a problem.