So what the heck do the dealer mechanics and others guys use? I am wary about spending 135clams on a tool that "may" work...... -Nate
What about the water pumps that are supposed to be more efficient that the other guys are selling? wouldnt that be worth the upcharge? -Nate
I looked into them and posted a few questions on this forum as well. The concensus seems to be that the cooling system is more than adequate as stock if eveything is working OK. My feeling was the stock big bearing pump is fine and if I were to upgrade the money is better spent on one of Nicks aluminum radiators. I also replaced my thermostat (which had fallen apart).
Speaking of thermostat, has anyone removed theirs completely? I live in Florida and this is a very common thing to do since it rarely freezes here to the point that a thermostat would be required.
Many thanks for answering a few basic questions on disassembly procedure for t-belt R/R on an 86-328. In the attached image, do I remove the bolt (circled yellow) to remove the rear t-belt cover? On the water pump image, there's a tiny amount of seapage out of the weep hole, the water pump was replaced 4 years old with 4K miles on it, does this mean it needs replacement? What's the size of the gargantuan nut/bolt that is bolted to the balancer? There are two white marks (one labeled 1/4, the other 5/8) on the balancer, any guess where the corresponding (on the engine casing?) pointer for them is? On the flywheel image, is that the "slit" where one looks for the PM1-4 mark? Can I use a dial-indicator measureing piston 1 TDC instead of the flywheel or the balancer marks? On the oil dipstick, can I push it toward the firewall (without worrying about bending something down low) so I can remove the front t-belt cover? In the lower right image, what does the "loop thingy" (circled yellow) do? Is there any special tool needed to remove the front (firewall) row of spark plugs? Many thanks! - Nguyen Image Unavailable, Please Login
I've always understood that removing the Thermostat from any engine is an extremely bad idea. The thermostat regulates & stabilises engine temperature & so without it, apart from the fact that the thing is unlikely to ever reach proper operating temperature in the first instance, the temperature will move up & down depending on running conditions *traffic etc) which is not desireable. I was also once told that you can in fact get localised overheating in some parts of the engine (causing damage) because of the fact that the water flow rate is generally too high & the way water circulates around the block can also change. Whether that's true or not I don't know - but it came from an independent mechanic I once dealt with who did a lot of competition (rally) car preparation - he generally knew what he was doing. Its there for a (good) reason, I'd leave well alone. I.
Nguyen, here's the only three questions I can answer: 1. The "loopy thing" is a Porche/VW replacement plug for the CO mixture adjusting port. Ferrari put a small metal slug in there from the factory that must be drilled out to remove, then a new one tapped back in to replace. 2. After Dave (Handa) posted on his balancer not being securely tightened, I went out and bought the socket to check mine: 36mm. 3. To remove the front bank of spark plugs, I use a spark plug socket, 3" extension (I think), and universal, then another 3" extension. It's challenging but doable with hand tools. I posted a picture at one point of my setup but can't seem to find it. Take some pictures for all of us! (smile) Carl
Here's what I remember from doing my belts (80)...try Rear timiming belt cover should come off by removing your circled bolt and the H20 belt tenisioner assembly... (I don't have one on my 80). Also I think a few of the vapor return hoses have to be disconected for the rear cover to come off (above it and to the rear of the car). I'm under the impression that a little weeping from the pump is ok. It's a sign that a little coolant is getting past the seal but unless it's flowing like a waterfall nothing to get overly concerend about. Dipstick is fastened to the front cover at the top (if I remeber right) and by simply taking out the bolt and it will have enough play to allow the front cover to come off. There should be an access cover that you remove in that area which will give you a larger veiw of the flywheel that the slit in the pic. The marks on the balancer were probably put there by a mech on a previous belt change. I would guess that once you remove the T/B covers there will be corresponding marks on the block. I would not consider these marks to be what you base/check your cam timing on, but rather simple reference marks to let you know your are getting close to TDC. Thus it's not so much back and forth checking the flywheel if you are working by yourself. I did my belts three years ago and on an earlier model, so I'm sort of freewheelin' it here, but there's some help in there somewhere.
1. This bolt and 2 others which hold the belt water pump belt tensioner. 2. Replace the pump..do it now rather then later and save yourself a tow. 3. 36mm..use an impact gun to remove 4.Don't use those marks. remove them and make your own. You don't know which angle the mechanic was looking when he made them, and you don't know the excat referance point on the block. 5.You are looking at this from the rear side. You are looking at the flywheel in the wrong place. The correct place is on top of the engine just behined the oil filter. You will see a triangle shaped cap with a black rubber gasket under it. Remove this (2 8mm nuts). There you will find the pointer. Set to PM1-4. You will see a vertical line, line it up with the pointer. 6. NO..just undo the 10mm nut, and push the dipstick tube back just far enough to clear the stud. Some of them have a 10mm bolt, so pushing on the tube is not needed. 7. That loopie thing is a cap for the Co adjustment screw for the fuel distributor. If your car is running fine don't touch it. In order to chenge the front bank belts you must remove the A/C compressor. Not a fun job..you will swear and throw stuff. Not to sound like an ass..but judging by your questions (which are all fine to ask) I'm not quite sure you should be taking this job on yourself. If possiable, get in contact with a fellow do it yourselfer in your area that has done this job before and can work with you. These engines are not the best to be learning on, as mistakes are quite costly. If you really want to do this..take your time and mark everything you remove. There are lots of spacer washers etc that are hidden under componets that must go back inplace. Keep track of everything with your camera by taking pics as you go. When it comes time to remove the cam belts, mark everything you can to referance the camshaft postions. Be very careful with the front exhaust cam, as it will jump forward and you will lose you cam position. Marking everything beforehand is critical to this job if you are not intending to remove the cam covers.
Usually the professionals do a full service, cam covers off, replace all the gaskets, seals, check/setup the cam timing with dial indicators, etc. Some of the pros have machined blocks that clamp onto a cam & are a snug fit against the inside of the head. Some use vice grips on the cams & duct tape the handles together (Allegedly, the 355 WSM actually shows this, haven't read it myself.) A full service is strongly recommended the first time you do/have a major done because you just don't know if the timng was setup right in the 1st place. I've done quite a few 3x8 engines & ONLY 1 HAD ALL 4 CAMS PROPERLY TIMED. Most pros will tell you the same thing. Once you know your timing is spot on, you can then decide whether to keep the cam covers on & just use marks for the next change. Another reason a cam cover off job is done is that it's a very rare 3x8 engine that doesn't have at least 1 cam seal leaking when it comes in for a belt chang. CAM LOCKS ARE NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY: It's been said many times in the archives by me & others, you don't have to have a cam lock to just change the belts. It does make the job a lot easier, & reduces risk, especially for a first-timer. If you carefully mark the old & new belts, cam gears, & head, you can do a 3x8 belt job w/o a cam lock. It really helps to have a 2nd person to both double check you, & to help keep the cams in place while you slip the belt on. A simple tool that really helps get the cams lined up just before you slip the new belt on is to use contact cement to glue an 8" strip of old belt onto a 8" x 1" strip of 1/8" steel or Al. You just lay it across the top of the two cam gears & make sure the teeth mesh.
Umm, problem is that a little coolant inside a bearing turns the bearing lube into mayonase & the bearing heat quickly exhausts the anti-corrosives in the coolant, result is the bearing rusts. This is especially tru if you 're storing the car during salt season where the coolant isn't being replenished. Bottom line is that a brown streak out of the weep hole is telling you that the WP is on it's last legs. A WP rebuild takes about an hour & about $120 in parts, or about half-that if you source the parts from McMaster-Carr or a local bearing & seal supplier (search the archives for specifics).
Its too bad a good ol timing gun and a timing wrench dont work on these babies...I just have a really hard time dropping 3 to 4k pay someone to do this work. I wish there was someone in the central florida area who would help me do this. I could pay for his parts as well as mine or something. I can turn a wrench no problem. I want to learn and like doing it too. I have rebuilt a few engines in the past but I guess all of the talk and caution involving a resistance engine has me scared $hitless. -Nate
Thanks for updating me on this. I rebuilt my pump about 3 years ago and have yet to have any weeping personally. I had heard a while back on this board that a little weeping was ok... glad you made your comment.
I should put out a contract for Italian mafia to kill whoever design the mounting mechanism and position for the 328 AC compressor! How do you move (or remove) the AC compressor far enough to access the bolts/nuts that attached the upper compressor mount to the front t-belt cover? Many thanks! -Nguyen
You wanted a lot of motor in a small space. Be glad you don't have a 355 now there is some tight packaging. It is a big improvement over the early 308 mounting and a real cake walk compared to a 246. You are benefitting from many years of improvements. Take off both hoses, disconnect the 2 wires, remove all fasteners and lower mounting bracket, take off the waterpump pulley and remove the compressor from the car. Once it is on the floor or work bench, the 5/8 bank timing belt cover is easy to get to.
Thanks, although I already removed those items. The problem is I can't drop the comp down far enough to free up the two long upper mount bolt and to remove the comp. The compressor pulley hit (circled area in yellow) the bolt that sticks out from the engine. I am not sure how much force I should use to push the compressor side way for the pulley to clear that bolt. - Nguyen Image Unavailable, Please Login
You have to remove the studs. I am sorry, when I said remove the fasteners I meant those too. I was just not specific enough. The compressor should remain attached to the upper mount until the studs are out, then take the compressor out the bottom past the waterpump. After that remove the upper mount. And quit fighting that water pipe. Take it out.
Many thanks you guys, here are a few more questions: In the attached combo image, the top two are taken through the oil fill cap, are those cam timing marks (circled yellow) you guys talked about? Are they suppose to be in a perfect straightline? With "that much off", can I turn the crank counterclockwise (if need be) to line them up? In the bottom left image, I can barely see the PM14 marks and the pointer, there should be a line in between the "1" and the "4", and the pointer should point to that line in right? In the bottom right image, can I replace those gas lines with steel braided fuel lines? Lastly, although I got the AC off and the front t-belt cover off, it took forever to remove the 3 upper AC mount nuts, and working blind to remove all those 8mm bolts from the back of the t-belt cover. Is there any specific tool that you guys used to make the job easier? I am thinking of the return trip. What's the "red" thing on the clutch housing/pressure plate? Many many thanks again. - Nguyen Image Unavailable, Please Login
There are more informed opinions than mine but... In the cam timing pic with the bolt, I could live with that... the other one looks to need some tinkering. You'll need to deal with aligment on a cam to cam basis (not turning the whole engine) using the dowel pins on the pully and perhaps a degree wheel to get everything spot on. Most people say not to use braided line as it can hide cracks and deterioration. Everyone seems to use a regular, top quaility FUEL RATED hose. On another note, of all the tech/belt posts I've seen on F-chat this one does seem to be the most "novice" of the lot. The fact remains that everyone has their own limitations of knowledge in may areas, (including myslef). As such we can all learn something from a thread like this and we have to remember we all have to start somewhere.
The cam images were from the same cam. I just want to confirm the T-marks. Also I don't think the engine is at TDC. I can't see the PM1|4 mark clearly (even with mirror), so I'd need a dial indicator on no 1 cyl to be sure. Regarding turning the crank, mainly I'd like to find out if turning the crank counter clock wise a few degrees is o.k, particularly when the belts are off, then I'm sure I'd need to jiggle the crank to get the new belt on, or the crank would move slightly when the new tensioner is installed and released. I'm not sure I'd do the cam timing this time. No leak around the cam, dist, and valve seals. In fact the car has been running like a dream and I really had a hard time contemplating open it up either by me or a real pro. On seeing all the belts (t, alt, ac) now, after 8 years, 10K mile (1K tracked mile), they still look very new. But as everyone'd said, they can't be judge by look. I still have the other two set of belts from previous, they look new too. So after this, I'll cut them up in multiple sections to see what the cross sections at different places look like. Would we learn anything from this? Thanks again. - Nguyen
The TDC timing mark is not necessairily going to be in the middle of the PM1-4 lettering. It'll be very close tho. I think the letters may be stamped on before the flywheel is machined & then the mark applied, or possibly the mark is put on after the engine is assembled & timed. I've seen the mark's location vary from each end of the lettering to actually being on top of one of the letters: ie: |PM1-4 PM|1-4 PM1|-4 PM1-4| Suggest using some brake cleaner on an 'acid brush' (small stiff metal handled brush) to clean the PM 1-4 area, then rub the area gently with a white or yellow china marker. This will make the lettering stand out. Also clean the pointer's tip & use a yellow or flourescent paint to improve it's visability. Once you have the flywheel on PM1-4, I suggest making a pointer out of a length of coat hanger or strip of sheet metal. Mount one end under a convenient fastener close to the damper eg: WP nut, or alternator bracket nut. Bend the pointer until it's tip extends over the front edge of the damper & put a spot of white or yellow paint on the pointer tip & on the damper. Now you have a visual reference for PM1-4 on the front of the engine. IF BELTS ARE STILL ON: As long as the belts are on & the tensioners are still tight, you can back the engine up by hand. I'd back it up about 45 degrees, then bring it forward until I can see the start of teh PM1-4 lettering, then use a pry bar on the flywheel teeth to gently bring the | mark under the pointer. IF BELTS ARE OFF: You're in a precarious situation as it's very easy to loose the timing relationship between the crank & the cams, thus requiring you to pull the cam covers(been there). It's hard to tell if you're off a tooth. I recommend you: - reinstall the old belt, making sure the belt marks line up with the timing drive gears as well as the cam gears, & the cam gear marks still line up with the cam seal housing marks. Then: - release the tensioner to keep the belt on the gears, - remove the cam lock, - bring the engine around clockwise until it's on the PM1-4 | mark as described above. - Then reinstall the cam lock & remove the belt. If necessary, you can safely back the crank CCW about 3 or 4 degrees (about 0.25" of damper rotation if you use the pointer I described) in order to get the belt on. 8MM REAR COVER BOLTS: I use an 8mm GearWrench with an offset head sold in sets by Sears under both CRAFTSMAN & GearWrench brands. Get the GearWrench set as it has the 19mm wrench you need for the nuts on the top of the A/C bracket.
BTW, on a 328 you don't need to disconnect the A/C hoses. Once you have the brackets off of the compressor, you can rotate it sideways & bring it up past the WP & drape it over the top of the fuel tank. Yes, you'll need to get that diagonal coolant pipe out of the way. Drain about a gallon or so of coolant out. You can then disconnect the top of the pipe, & loosten the bottom end enough to rotate the pipe down alongside the frame out of the way. Rotate it slowly so that you can stop & drain more coolant if it starts pouring out of it.
This is more of an esoteric question, but watching all of these cam belt discussions on these interference engines made me wonder why the belts are changed at TDC. TDC is where the piston to valve crash happens. How cool would it be to have a set of marks at 45 deg BTDC (did I do the math the right direction for all pistions to be equally away from TDC?) for belt changing. You could rotate the engine a bit and you could rotate the cams freely without banging anything. TDC is convienient for looking at relationships of pistons and valves but the danger of having two pistons as close to the valves as they can possibly be seems unnecessary. Of course once the engine is in the car with the heads on finding 45 deg BTDC is more difficult, but it could be done.
Actually, TDC is ONLY where the piston to valve crash occurrs when the cams are out of synch with the pistons. 45 degrees would give you a lot less clearance than you think. Remember that valves stay open for a large portion of a crank rotation as the cams turn at 1/2 the crank speed. 45 degrees of engine rotation is only 22-1/2 degrees of cam rotation which on a 3x8 happens to be just over 1.5 cam belt teeth! Setting the timing at TDC before removing belts actually gives you the maximum possible crank rotation before a piston intersects a valve. TDC for the 1-4(rear) bank has the 1-5 bank at 90 degrees which is at exact half-stroke. The 1-4 bank's two pistons that are at the top of their stroke have their valves closed, one is on the compressin stroke, the other on the exhaust stroke. The other 2 pistons of that bank are at BDC, so will have valves wide open. But, the 1-4 pistons that are at BDC have to rotate up over 90 degees before they're anywhere near a valve. It's the 1-5 bank(front) pistons that you have to worry about tapping valves when you start moving the crank with the belts off. Also, TDC can be precisely determined very precisely with a dial indicator,piston stop, or several other well known methods.
I think you mis-understood. Right. And if you've got the belt off and you have no synch. Right, but it is enough to move ALL of the pistons in the engine far enough from the valves that they wouldn't hit even if you spun a cam through a complete revolution. My point is that the pistons don't have to be in the danger zone to do a belt change, but at TDC they are. Is it ever a problem? Probably hardly ever, but all things being equal why would you choose to put your engine in the position where it could be a problem when it could be easy to put it a position where it is impossible? Precisely. I find that I lock the crank in place with the parking brake so it won't move and I move the cams a little to get teeth to line up. Moving the cams makes me a little nervous knowing that there are pistons in the danger zone even though I know it does take quite a bit of cam rotation to get the wrong vales to open. Yeah, and 45 deg BTDC would only be "easy" with the heads off. But if the engine came with marks for it from the factory (who knows that you'll be chaging belts more often than I change my shoes) it would be fine for belt changing (but not precise cam timing adjustments). (Sorry I went on so long. I didn't mean to hijack the thread.)
