question for track drivers

i got into a discussion on another board this weekend about whether or not an amature track day driver could tell the difference between two identical cars one of which has a sunroof. assume similar performance to a 360cs.

i say no way since pro drivers are sometimes penalized with a similar 50 lbs of extra weight. this works because the pro drives at the limit of the car and they will notice any extra weight. an amature would have to be able to do same before theyd notice difference. i would think a pro could cut 5 or more sec off a 2 min lap time compared to even an 'expert red instructor group' driver.

 

My expereince watching Instructors with race experience drive the same car as Randy Pobst in ideal conditions (weather and traffic wise) leads me to believe that the pros are light years removed from most amateurs. Randy was able to extract 5 or more seconds from the same car at VIR as compared with an instructor's 997, nearly 10 seconds on a Carrera GT (and it was not his car of course) - and driving mine he was 8 seconds quicker. His braking was way more aggressive with almost (to me) violent turn ins. Whereas I was aiming to be smooth and keping the car balanced, he was willing to let it all hang out, which in a FWD lower powered car puts a huge premium on your ability to determine when the rear end is going to let go as countersteer has much less impact.

So I believe you are not just correct but very correct - and that us amateur track floggers are no where near the league where we can extract the most from the car. One of the main reasons is that we own the things and if it lets go and makes a mess, we have to fix it financially and physically. The pros are paid to drive flat out and they have legions to make sure they can. Most of us are on our own and even do the tire pressures ourselves. Add that to the logistics of getting car, self and stuff to and from the track, less acclimatization (we drive once a month - maybe), and very short sessions and I cannot believe that most amateurs would know if they had a spare wheel sitting in the trunk !

 

thanks so far but my question still remains - does anyone think a typical track day instructor level driver could tell the difference between the same car (p gt3) with and without a sunroof?

 

Not a chance.

 

I know FOR A FACT that I had a spare wheel sitting inside my trunk last week at the track...I saw it there before I left and again when I got home!!

 

Yes, if the sunroof was open!

 

I am assuming you are refering to the extra weight at the highest point of the vehicle which is definitley the worst place for it. I can't believe anyone could actually feel a difference of a sunroof. Most cars that are built for track use won't have one, or will have an aluminium panel where one was, but thee will also be a number of other weight saving subtractions everywhere else. Multiple weight saving efforts add up to make a difference that you can feel, one certainly does not.

 

Agree 100%. I don't personally know any amatures that I think would be able to tell the difference--especially me!!

 

glad to see most fchatters are on the same, realistic page i am regarding our driving skills.

i was at ny autoshow where i found out 997 gt3 will have a sunroof. i posted that info on rennlist where every post said the car is now ruined. i was severely flammed for saying thats rediculous. no amature drivers of car would notice difference on track and certainly not on street. (would be nice of p to allow buyers to choose though)

guess thats one more reason i like it here best

 

Even the owners that track their cars regularly won't be able to extract the last couple of seconds, let alone the last couple of tenths, out of the car. Those guys want to buy the 'extreme' car strictly for the poseur factor. I'd rather have the sunroof in my road car.

If they're serious, they should be buying a GT3 Cup or whatever the race version is called.

Hell, this past weekend, I had some track day nut job insist that his cue-ball open-face helmet + padded neck collar was much safer than my full-face helmet + HANS.

I think he needed the collar for the extreme g-forces his M3 road car was pulling...

 

Sorry - like the rest of the responders - NFW could any driver tell the difference and I would challenge most pros too. Their times might tell them something because of the weight but if they did not know that weight was there, I dont think so, especially as its right in the center of the car.

 

I would say the driver may not be able to tell the differance but the lap times would. That is if the driver can CONSISTANTLY do laps within .25 secs/ lap ( or so). Some "amatures" can. A 50 lb differance that high makes a differance. That said; this is a Street car. If you want a racer buy even a spec Miata.
PS; I dont think a sunroof belongs on a GT3, its out of character.
PSS; I WILL have a 996 GT3 when they depreciate to the 50s.

 

I've driven things like a Kia Optima and a Mitsubishi Galant, to a Chevy Impala, and a 360 Spider on Track.

I must say the RX-8s I've been driving recently in several events are absolutely exhilarating cars.

But, I would have to agree with everyone else. There is no way an amateur could tell the difference of 50, maybe even 100 extra pounds on the car. When you consider that for most amateurs that attend track events will only really be able to feel a difference between whether or not their instructor is in the car, the extra weight from the sunroof would be inconsequential. For a professional, 50 pounds would definitely make a difference in times, but whether or not they could recognize the difference would require some experimentation...

 

Much of what has been said here is absolutely false. In terms of noticing a sunroof maybe some of you are correct in thinking that only lap times would show a difference but that is also open to debate.

My first problem with many responses is what exactly do most of you define as an "amatuer". Is it based on the race series you race in? is it based on your day job (do you race for money or spend money to race)? is it based on ANY race experience (as opposed to serious track day nuts)?

All those criteria above have overlap. Case in point is Forrest Barber who co-owns and runs a Rolex Grand Am Daytona Prototype team. Is he an amatuer? He doesn't race cars for a living so is he an amateur? He does however race a $600,000 car quite proficiently and races in one of the top rungs or professional motorsports and co-drives with professional driver Terry Borcheller (he IS a pro). But if you look at Forrest's lap times he is always 1 1/2 to 2 seconds slower than Terry. So is he an amatuer???

What about a guy like Chris Dyson who races in ALMS and Rolex and will compete at LeMans this year? Is he a professional and if so does that mean two of my old SRF teamates who regularly beat him at Nationals in SRF are also pro's despite the fact that neither of them has done any pro racing. Both have won the SCCA Run Off's multiple times in one of SCCA's toughest classes.

In terms of noticing 30, 50 or 100 pounds both professionals (people like Terry Borcheller, Randy Pobst, Bill Auberlen) would most definitally notice the addition of such weight and so would the top 10 racers in most any class at the SCCA National Run Off's. I did some testing last year in my race car with various weight additions ranging from 20-60 pounds at Beaverun and Summit Point last year and even the lower weight (30 pounds) was noticeable in lap times (maybe not seat of the pants feel initially). Over extended test sessions in the same car you could most certainly feel the brakes fading, and the tires going away.

As for Red group people at FCA events, no I doubt 99% would notice any difference. At most of the FCA events I ran on the east coast, there might have been one or two pro level talent drivers turning pro level lap times for every 50 who were driving at their limit, not the cars.

Which raises another interesting point. Does the abscence of any racing preclude someone from having professional like ability or the ability to notice 50-100 pounds. If so I would argue this is also false. One of the fastest Red group driver's in the Empire State Region who used to drive a pretty mean Challenge car has never raced. 95Spiderman, I believe we have at one time run together at Empire State Region events a few years back.

You most likely know their chief instructor, Matt Karson, who used to pilot a yellow 355 Challenge with black stripes. He matched the fastest lap time set for the 355 Challenge series at Watkins Glen by Phil Shearer who went on to race in several pro series. I would put Matt up against many pros for pure speed but by most people's definition he's not a pro since he has never raced. Matt was also just as fast in his prior 348 Challenge at the Glen and Lime Rock as Court Wagner's times in a 348 Challenge.

Food for thought when trying to determine who is an amatuer and who is a pro.

vlamgat (Colin) you may remember that Mike Galati drove a few sessions in my Challenge car back at Summit a few years ago at the Audi event. Klaus Hirtes, whom I am sure you know as one of the Audi club's instructor's was timing Galati while I was in the car with him as a passenger. His first four laps he was 4 seconds a lap slower than my best times in that car. I remember on the fourth or fifth lap he sensed I felt comfortable with his driving and yelled over if to ask if I wanted him to push a little harder. I gave him the thumbs up and motioned at the gas pedal to go flat out. He then shaved 2 1/2 more seconds off the lap times. He got to within one second by the end of the session.

Things to consider a) it's not his $100,000 car b) he was still learning the track. I asked him on a scale of 1-10 where he was driving the car. He said about a 9.5.

Had he done a few more days at that track I am sure he would have found another 2 maybe three seconds. However a year later I had shaved my time down 2 more seconds (1:18.1 which is quite fast at Summit).

Two years ago I had Mike Fitzgerald, who many of your recognize from Rolex, ALMS, Speed Word Challenge and other race series, test my Grand Am Cup Acura. Mike was one of the last people to race the car in Grand Am Cup in the 2003 season. I got within 3/10ths of his lap times but when we looked at the data the real story was revealed.

And this is what seperates those who get paid to race and those like myself who pay to race. It's not ultimate lap times.....IT'S CONSISTENCY.

I can match Galati's time and Fitzgerald's times but for not for 25 laps straight. The pros make less mistakes than amateurs. That's what seperated them ultimately.

I also think that the gap between pro's and amateurs goes up dependant on the type of race car. The less street car oriented the race car the more premium is placed on having a professionals skill level.

I tested at Homestead 2 1/2 years ago with some guys who were building a Grand Am Rolex team. They had both a GT3 Cup car and a GT3RSR. Against two professional drivers (depending on how you want to define the term) I matched lap times (off by less than .5 sec) in the Cup car but couldn't get within 2 seconds of the RSR and in fact spun the RSR twice in 10 laps.

Bottom line is that many of us amatuers can match the pros (talking Rolex or Speed World Challenge here not F1 or CART, that's a totally different world) BUT WE ARE NEVER GOING TO MATCH THEIR CONSISTENCY.

All one has to do is look at a typical Rolex race and look at individual lap times. Some non pros get close to the pros for one, maybe two laps out of every 20, but the pros do it every single lap.

Getting back to the question of what the pro's can and can't feel consider this; I heard a story last year from a rival crew chief who claimed that Max Angelli, racing the Suntrust car, radioed in during a stint at Daytona last year (05) that the balance in his car had gone away abruptly. Max told his crew chief that he was certain a tire was going down by a pound or more. The Suntrust crew momentarily lost their telemetry link on the chief engineers laptop. A second lap top that was being used to monitor different data but was running the tire pressures data on a closed window (I believe I was told this was illegal in Grand Am monitoring tire pressure). When they were finally able to monitor all the data for various factors it turned out they right front tire was down about 1 pound of pressure. Max told them the car felt like it was a half second slower. Data showed he had slowed his last three laps to 0.80 per lap slower. If he can feel that change in tire pressure and predict his lap time by less than 0.30 of a second he might notice the sunroof.

Just my opinion. Feel free to flame away.

 

And at the other end of the spectrum:

I remember when Alboreto first signed with Ferrari, one of his first 'drives' was tire testing, and Goodyear wanted to see just how good he was at it, so he goes out, runs 4-5 laps, comes in, and the Goodyear folks do a chinese fire drill type of tire change, where they are pushing tires around like a shell game, and they (intentionally) put the set they just took off back on, so they send him back out, he does 4-5 laps, comes back in and asks 'Did you somehow put the same set back on, because this set is identical to what you took off'.

Yes, I know he is a pro, and a pro of that caliber dang well better be able to tell the difference.

Just thought I'd share.

 

In my 911 I can tell the difference, but i think it has to do with the fact that my weight distribution is 38/62 (f/r, with 1/2 tank full) and the gas tank is in front. Initially I liked driving with 1/2 tank or more as the car got tail happy below that. As I've improved and learned to handle the oversteer better, I now prefer to drive with less than 1/2 tank.

Driving the 968 with 50/50 distribution, I don't think I'd ever be able to tell the difference.

 

hi jon. i do remember you and matt with the squid? team. that car was fast then and still is with a female driver i met at wat glen last year!

my point on the rennlist site was that a sunroof is a nice addition for a street car driven by a typical track day driver in intermed/advanced run groups. they flammed me for that but i doubt 1% of them could take a 997 gt3 to the level where it would matter.

thanks for all your input

 

And when you dump the AC, remember to remove the condenser (at least on the 308) as it is in front of the coolant radiator. You want as much air going to cool that puppy as possible

Oh h@ll, while u r at it... dump the stock radiator for Fchat sponsor Nick Forza's bigger, lighter weight unit. Right Rob, gotta support those sponsors
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NO!

 

Great post Jon.

I think it's good to compare F1, Champ Car, GP2, etc, because it shows what really can be done with a car.

Open-wheelers and sport prototypes are probably the best method of separating the men from the boys.