Fill Your Tires With Nitrogen

Not really. When considering the actual space-filling size of atoms or molecules, the group the atoms come from on the periodic table are not a positive correlation. Across a row, as the group number gets large (save for the last one, the noble gases), the size of atoms will actually decrease. This is due to the higher electronegativity of the atoms on the right side of the periodic table (Flourine is the most electronegative atom). The higher electronegativety of the Oxygen atoms means that the nucleus has a stronger pull on its surrounding electrons, drawing them closer to the nucleus, and reducing the overall radius of the atom.

 

Having gone thru ATC (Automotive Training Center ) light years ago, your comments are basically exactly what was taught to us. The main benefit is to the collector car type guys with the older tires & trailer queens to avoid rubber deterioration.

 

Hey, COSTCO fills automatically with Nitrogen at its tire shops, so therefore, its got to be good, RIGHT???? But they still don't have a 205/70VR14 for a 246GTS......

 

If the air used to fill the tires is dry there is no benefit in using nitrogen.

If the guys filling your already mounted tires with nitrogen are not first pulling and holding a vacuum on them to boil all of the water vapor out you've still got water vapor in the tire. You're screwed.

If the guys mounting your new tires aren't using nitrogen to seat the beads you've still got water vapor in your tire. You're screwed.

...and if we're going to claim safety because people drive around with under inflated tires all the time then nitrogen can't fix that. Nitrogen isn't going to somehow cure anything anyone is doing stupidly right now.

 

Nobody has explained how the N2 proponents' assertion that it's less permeable through your tires than O2 (i.e. air) is false. It's been established that the N2 molecule is bigger than an O2 molecule. This isn't my area of specialty, but why wouldn't that make it harder for the N2 to permeate through your tire than the O2 in air?
As someone that checks tire pressures twice a year (when I put my summer tires on and when I put my winter tires on) I'd care. Would I pay $4/tire to get the Belle Tire down the street from me to change it out? No! But I care!

And I'll absolutely stand behind the notion that if you keep people's tires from bleeding down we're all safer on the road.

 

You have to maintain your tire pressures regardless of leaks. When it gets cold outside the pressure will go down. Every season when it gets cold you see all these cars driving around with obviously underinflated tires. Nitrogen will not change that.

 

You're funny.... "YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN YOUR PRESSURES!!!"

Why aren't all of those people that don't? Saying "you have to" isn't going to prevent that person with the tires at 18 PSI from crashing into your car. If it mitigates that maintenance requirement and keeps someone from rolling their Explorer right in front of my car, what's bad about that?

I'm not worried about tires losing 3 PSI in winter, i'm worried about them losing 15 PSI over the 3 years they're never checked. It happens. It will happen more and more. How do you mitigate the loss of focus on maintenance that you see more and more in the American motorist? In this case, it's not using an oil life monitor to tell them they'd better change their oil, it affects the safety of the car owner and those around them.
Unless someone can really refute the assertion that N2 leaks out of your tires slower than air, I'd have to say it's worth it for that reason alone. Belle Tire (the store that started all this) does it for free when you buy new tires there. No reports on how thorough they are, I'm assuming they evacuate the tire first. That means that each day, hundreds of the motorists on the very same roads I'm on are getting N2 in their tires. If I remember to think about this, I'll feel safer on the roads here in 2 or 3 years...

 

LMAO...and crying at the same time...

 

The tires on a Montreal subway train are filled with nitrogen. They say it stays cooler. This, after a major fire in '74 due to overheating (and exploding) tires. So perhaps there is some truth.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

My thoughts on nitrogen................
Spent $12 USD on having mine filled will nitrogen 2 months ago....36' front and 38' rear on a TR.......
1800 miles later, 20 F to 80 F temperature variouses and today they were exactly the same pressure..........I like the stability that I have in a constant cold pressure and not having to be concerned................$12 USD well spent and if it isn't making any difference...............in my little mind it's foolin' me and I like it! Kerry

 

I'm sure I haven't been driving as many years as some here but it doesn't take more than a couple weeks driving experience to realize that the reason there are so many accidents of any type has nothing to do with what gas motorists choose to fill their tires with.

At some point everyone has to accept that driving a car bears some responsibility. The airbag, the gas in the tires with and all the warning labels plastered inside the car can't do it for you. You can fix the car all you want, but if it has a stupid driver it will be just as big a threat to everyone else on the road regardless.

 

I'm confused. Are you looking for a means to fill your tires and then not check them for 3 years? That's just silly. I don't think the size of the molecule is that important at that point. I don't think the seal between the tire and the wheel is that tight. All tires are going to leak a little over time, no matter what they are filled with. The tire and wheel are two different pieces that can move against each other and gas will get out. If we were talking about gas escaping from a totally closed thing, like a balloon, that would be worth discussing. I have never had a tire that would measure the same pressure if I waited a year, nevermind 3.

Birdman

 

My bottle ran out, back to plain ol' US of A air...here in Houston, NO TELLIN' what I get, included with that! LOL!

I just repainted this cylinder, too, darn it!

 

Well, I'm not saying _I_ want to go 3 years...
But people do it. Look at the stories you find in the news every now and then about how much more people are ignoring things like oil changes on lease cars and even personal cars. Apparently Mercedes is seeing a lot of this! I've seen people driving on tires that were obviously about 15 PSI and this was on the rear of an Explorer after the entire Firestone debacle! People don't pay attention to these things. If they buy their new tires and get something that will help keep them from bleeding down I'm a big proponent.

As for how long tires will hold pressure... I know all 4 tires on the 308 read 26 psi this spring, but I don't remember what I'd set them at last year! As for doubting that the size of the molecule influences permeation rate, and how much leaks past the bead... Well, I'm not going to go research it, but it's some pretty simple sounding science to back up the claims of why to use N2....

heck, I should go there and get 2 tires done and see how they compare! I did want to get a couple re-balanced anyways.....

 

Ummm, unless you're running an innertube I'll bet you you'll break the bead loose long before you get much of a vacuum.

Sic em Birdman, I agree with you, other than oxidation of the rubber, there's no reason O2 should leave a tire faster than N2.

But, let's assume it did & all you had left was the N2 you started with. Now top off the tire, & you've got ~95% N2: 0.79 of the volume is the original N2, and 0.21 of the volume is (0.79 N2 + 0.21 O2).

Birdman,
I've a minor quibble about how long tires & wheels in good condition will hold pressure. That '82 gold Rx7 in my driveway got new tires on it in early 89, put maybe 800 or 900 miles on them before I started the Turbo engine conversion. It languished in the garage for 5 or 6 years, & 3 out of 4 tires still had about 25 psi in them when I rolled it out to work on another project car & figured I ought to top off the tires so they'd roll easily. Blew my mind!

 

Wheels are porus. Lots of time pressure loss is through the wheel, not the tire.

Ken

 

For those that doubt the porosity of tires & wheels, see the referenced works:
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Bridgestone.pdf
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/FordBaldwinResearchRaper.pdf

See page 4 of the Bridgestone flyer. See the summary on the first few pages of the Ford paper.

Note that the issue of "purging" that we've all speculated on earlier is addressed. You get 95%+ N2 in a tire that's been inflated from 1 bar absolute pressure air. The Ford paper shows that 95% N2 almost entirely eliminates internal oxidation.

I'm still not planning to go get this done, but since I _DO_ have a couple of tires that are 6 years old on my car, and that's the age that Chrysler recommends all tires be replaced at, perhaps I should.

 

In which case this whole discussion is irrelevant as you're going to loose pressure whether it's N2 or air...

 

With the cost of a cylinder of nitrogen one can be sure the tire stores seat the bead with compressed air and then fill with nitrogen.
On all of the cars that get slicks the only way to realise the benifits of N2 is to pull a vacuum on the tires for about 20 mins. About all of the slicks stay on the bead if not greased when installed, but turn into a square block at vacuum. Without the vacuum I still see a major pressure growth at the track. Figure the A/C systems require vacuum to be applied for 20 mins minimum to turn any water into vapor and be removed from the system. Drain a shop compressor some time and see how much water is in the air lines. Back when I used to bust tires it was common place to find the better part of a half cup of water in the tire.
Easier on the rubber, on the inside? Well, just havent seen the need for that quite yet. Keeping the cold to hot tire pressures to a 2 PSI swing is a benifit.
Dave

 

Read the referenced works. They (I think it's the Ford paper) specifically state that N2 will permeate through TIRES less than air.

The Ford paper again (much more technical than the Bridgestone document) indicates how much practical difference there is between 96% and 99.9% pure N2 (which means "filled with N2" vs "purged with N2"). Not too much.

 

So you have proved my point. In 5 or 6 years, you lost some pressure. WHat were the tires inflated to when you started? I'm not trying to imply that they will leak like a seive, just that all tubeless tires leak a little over time. Maybe just a tiny but, but they do. My point is that you can't possibly expect to drive a car for 3 years and not check the tire pressure.

I don't KNOW this, but I also suspect that driving the car makes the tires leak faster because things are in motion.

Birdman

 

Dude, your tires are underinflated!

Birdman

 

You are correct...nitrogen is inert unless combined with other elements and/or hydrocarbons, I mean come on like 70% of the air that we breathe is Nitrogen and nobody worrys about it when they strike a match to light a nice Dominican cigar.

However the 'Tri' in TNT does not refer to the toluene but to the Nitrogen as in C7H5N3O6 or 2,4,6 trinitro-toluene, three NO3's attached to 2nd, 4th, and 7th carbon atoms in the Cyclo-heptane hydrocarbon that is 'toluene'. God I loved organic chemistry...sad eh?

I still think that no matter what 'Belle Tire' tells us on the Television in the Metro Detroit area if you check your tire pressure at least once a month regular compressed air is still the way to go. If you need to re 'nitronize' your tires and you are on the road or it is after the tire store is closed where are you going to go? I can always hit the compressor in my garage or drop by the local filling station. My $.02.

 

Re: TNT "Tri-Nitro-Toluene", I was just using poetic license as the words used there were all written without the "Nitro" part.
As for topping up, one of those documents addressed that, pointing out that adding a small amount of air to a 96% N2 tire won't have much impact on the overall N2 concentration in the tire. Also, I think Belle Tire will re-nitronize for free. Whatever. This discussion has tempted me to go get a couple of tires done and see for myself! :|