348 Emission Test Fail | FerrariChat

348 Emission Test Fail

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by dade, May 6, 2006.

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  1. dade

    dade Rookie

    Jan 28, 2004
    29
    LoCo VA
    Full Name:
    Shaun
    Hey fellas,

    The 348 failed emissions terribly a few days ago. Just look at these numbers....

    15 MPH
    HC ppm - Limit 81 / Reading 126....FAIL
    CO% - Limit 0.32 / Reading 0.89....FAIL
    NO ppm - Limit 1059 / Reading 615...PASS
    RPM: 1760 VALID
    Dilution: 14.8 VALID

    25 MPH
    HC ppm - Limit 88 / Reading 125....FAIL
    CO% - Limit 0.47 / Reading 0.88....FAIL
    NO ppm - Limit 1029 / Reading 531....PASS
    RPM: 1921 VALID
    Dilution: 14.8 VALID

    So I've read this thread over, as well as Primers:
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75815&highlight=emissions

    The ohm readout is 382ohm (drivers) and 384ohm (passenger) for the MAF. Factory spec is 383. Seeing as my HC and CO% are pushing me way over, and the ohm readings are set near factory, I am trying to decide what is best for passing emissions. What the above thread and primer's does not say is how much you should go to lean it out.

    Since the spec is on par with factory for MAF, maybe I shouldn't lean out the mixture for the HC ppm/CO%- but if I wanted to lean it out, just how far should I turn? Is 10ohms incredibly high, bringing it to 393? Not enough? What about 415? Can anyone provide some clarity here please...

    Or perhaps this is one of the "extreme cases" that needs to go the G2P route (fuel additive for cleaning out emissions systems).

    Thoughts???
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,932
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Those HC and CO numbers aren't that bad if your cats are no longer really working internally (or if they've have been punched out).

    You really can't "lean it out" since the amount of fuel added during gently warm running is ultimately controlled by the O2 sensors (or should be -- wouldn't hurt to measure what's coming out voltage-wise from the O2 sensors to see if the control system is running closed-loop when warm). You really need to get the same HC and CO measurements of the exhaust gas entering the cat to determine if the problem is excessive fuel delivery or just dead cats.

    If you move to CO you would probably "pass" ;) (as the limits here are more like 1.2% CO and 200 ppm HC).
     
  3. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Adding 20 ohms to 403 would be a good first guess, but it's just that, a guess. Lean too far and you will get a lean misfire which will jump up your HC's and fail your test.

    Pull your spark plugs, clean them, and gap them to less than .028" . This will help reduce misses...the real enemy of an emissions check.

    You will also lean out the system by some small amount if you clean your air filter, or for a brief test only (gasp), run sans air filter momentarily (not recommended).

    New O2 sensors will help, too. Change your oil. And if all of the above doesn't work, then you've got a structural problem somewhere such as failed cats or bad spark plug wire/coil/MAF, etc.

    Keep in mind, though, that the HC/CO/NO curve is pretty sensitive.
     
  4. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    One question, what **gear** was your 348 in to be lugging around at 1921rpms for 25mph??
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Aside from just plain guessing what you really need to know is as Steve said, the pre cat exhaust numbers. The post cat numbers are so manipulated, and by who knows what degree, by the catalytic converters they are of zero use in diagnosing a running problem. That is exactly why Ferrari on every road car provides a method for accessing pre cat gas for measurment.

    Performing any adjustment or replacement of any parts prior to knowing that information will require divine guidence or dumb luck to actually get the car fixed.
     
  6. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Clearly you want the pre-cat exhaust numbers for a professional fix/tune.

    But a couple of things need to also be considered: for one thing, most Fcar enthusiasts don't have access to those numbers, so a simple home fix turns into an ordeal of taking the car to a shop, leaving the car, sometimes for days, hassling with getting a ride back to the shop to pick up the car, etc...and then the enthusiast really hasn't learned how to handle the problem herself if it reappears.

    What would be helpful would be a tip on how to get the pre-exhaust numbers at home, rather than a more generic statement that you simply need those numbers.

    Another point, it's not all guessing. For instance, an emissions test performed in the wrong gear is going to have the engine lugging or over-revving, depending upon the wrong gear selected...both of which are going to be adverse to an emissions check.

    And even when guessing, educated guesses can get in the correct ballpark (e.g. matching up both MAF's to have identical resistance settings at or near the factory pre-set 383 ohms mark).
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
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    Brian Crall
    If you are going to work on modern cars even at home an exhaust gas analyzer is very high on the list of equipment needed to keep yourself from working in the dark. I don't know about you but when someone tells me I need to know my temperature I know I need a thermometer, I don't need to be told. Also many shops would be happy to measure those numbers for you so you would not have to go to the trouble and expense of buying the equipment.

    As far as testing the car in the wrong gear evidently you have no idea what a 21 century smog test consist of. They are performed on a dyno according to a very narrowly defined test cycle where the speeds and rpm ranges are selected for you and give you no latitude in gear selection.

    Once again you are out of your element.


     
  8. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    I've used an exhaust gas analzyer while my car was on a dyno, but the sensor-probe went into the tailpipe. The sensor probe was also substantially larger than the pre-cat ports in my exhaust.

    So as a home enthusiast, I'd be stumped (big surprise, right) on how to get the pre-exhaust numbers with that exhaust gas analyzer. I'm probably not the only Fcar dillettante to be at that point, either...

    ...so a tip on how to obtain the pre-exhaust numbers would help a few 348 Brothers.


    The tests vary from state to state, of course, with some states specifying a generic "2nd gear" at 25mph and other states having a chart to look up the appropriate gear for 25mph is said car.

    The state of Washington says (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-070):
    "2. Vehicle Gear Selection: Vehicles with automatic transmissions use Drive (not Overdrive), vehicles with manual transmissions use second gear. Shift to the next higher gear if the engine speed exceeds 2500 revolutions per minute.

    3. Vehicle Speed: Set vehicle speed at 25 miles per hour (mph) 1.5 ± mph."


    All of the above brings up two legitimate questions:
    1. was the 348 in 2nd gear and
    2. is 2nd gear truly appropriate for testing emissions at 25mph in a 348?


    And then you've got federal regulations that come into play, for instance, on background emissions.

    http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/julqtr/40cfr86.096-8.htm

    Which says "The demonstrated level of nonfuel background emissions may be subtracted from emission test results from certification vehicles..."

    So if you are in a high smog area, your emission test results are supposed to subtract the ambient emission levels from your test results on your car.

    But hey, I'm out of my element here, right?!
     
  9. dade

    dade Rookie

    Jan 28, 2004
    29
    LoCo VA
    Full Name:
    Shaun
    Guys, thanks for all the help and suggestions. I am not sure which gear was used for the tests- it was either 2nd or 3rd. Any certainty on which gear ought to be used for the test?

    I've sinced leaned out the A/F mixture up to 403 ohms and changed oil. The F- seems to be running just the same. Next up is to pull and clean plugs then regap, replace if needed and clean the air filter.

    It was strongly recommended to me to also use G2P on a full tank, followed by 3 bottles of "Dry Gas" in 1/4 tank of fuel, run it out then refuel and retest. Will this stuff hurt our F- cars or is it pretty safe? My vehicle appears to be running correctly without any check engine lights or weird occurances (aside from a hard shift into second from first gear on a cold engine ;p )

    Again, I really appreciate your help, thank you!
     
  10. Gary48

    Gary48 Guest

    Dec 30, 2003
    940
    Forget the dry gas use 12 ounces of acetone per tankful, drive it around for a while and go for your test. Old pro's say it passes every time. Sh-h-h-u-sh! its a secret.
     
  11. dade

    dade Rookie

    Jan 28, 2004
    29
    LoCo VA
    Full Name:
    Shaun
    Sorry for a delayed response!

    So here is what was done:
    Oil Change
    Air Filter
    Fuel Filters
    All new plugs
    2 new wires (just these two wires alone cost in excess of $850!!!)
    A/F Mixture leaned out 403 Ohms, +20 from normal


    End result: WAIVER (Spent so much money trying to fix it, they waived it -.-)

    15 mph Limit / Reading
    HC ppm......... 81 / 128.......FAIL
    CO%..........0.32 / 0.70.......FAIL
    NOppm.......1059 / 551.......PASS

    25mph
    HC ppm.........88 / 121.......FAIL
    CO%....... 0.47 / 0.74........FAIL
    NOppm.....1029/456..........PASS

    Test was done @ FoW.

    Emissions is due every two years here, so while the problem is not resolved, I do have some time now to work it out. What is left in the emissions system now? I was thinking that the Cats were dead, but don't the catcons handle the NO ppm part (the only part that passed)?

    Was considering hyper-flow cats, so I am wondering if there is anyone who has these and used them with emissions, what the results were, etc...

    Or if it is not the cats, what else can I do aside from moving to where there is no emissions :p

    TIA~
    shaun
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    Sorry for your trouble but it is no surprise. Reread #5. There is no substitute for methodical diagnostics. My post and Steves post are the only 2 that can help. Everyone else was from fantasylandOf that there is "No Doubt".
     
  13. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
    5,555
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Vern
    Ahh..Good morning Brian. Hadn't read this post before. Other than post no. 2 & 5 another exersize in pissin' in the wind, I have understood that can be messy. LOL. This place cracks me up. Regards, Vern
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,620
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    I would disconnect the cats and have a look inside. I'm gonna guess that the ceramic is gone.

    Last year when I had to get my car smogged I was failing by 0.1. Turned out that the right side cat was gone, completely burn out. The left side was fine though.

    Since your MAFS readings are fine, I would just pull the cats and have a look inside.
     
  15. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Ernie's been through this before; he had a bad cat.

    The Hyper-Flow cats will help emissions and performance, so that's a double win for you.
     
  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,620
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Before you spend the money, pull the cats and have a peek inside.
     

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