Another broken timing belt thread

How many hours is a major on a well maintained, good running 308 QV, including belts?

No points and no carbs has to trim at least a day's labor. I have never really thought about it before but owning a inj. 308 is apparently much less expensive to maintain when the 30,000's roll around.

 

That is a good list, no question. But I assumed this was a timing belt thread. I don't imagine anyone reading this thread extrapolated it out to the entire car. Most on here who work on thier car can do a lot, but shy away from anything on the engine, and its the belts and thier replacement thats got everyone bugged. There are threads after threads about the timing belts. In all the years I have been involved in various forums, not once have I heard anyone quote a 30K service on a 308 that was anywhere that involved, generally its kept to the engine and gearbox proper. Most of the reason everyone is trying to extend belt service is because many are making it out to be a week long ordeal. I have seen first hand of people quoted over $5000 for just a belt service. FoA I believe, quoted someone here almost $7500 for only an engine service. No brakes. No AC. Belts and oil change basically. The gentleman in the UK quoted a price earlier, that was only regarding the engine belt service. Maybe you would like to add wash wax buff polish and interior detailing to your list along with a wheel alignment? My friend who used to live here was charged $4700 for a belt service, and a belt service only, that came back with an oil leak they couldnt fix. They did not service any other part of the car. Please, lets compare apples to apples, okay?

 

WHO called YOU a thief? Where does distributors carbs and valve adjustment extend to brakes and air conditioning? Where is any thread on Fchat dealing with timing belts, and the engine service, has doing brakes and air conditioning come up? If you want to do everything on your list for under $5k parts and labor, let us know.

 

In a 348 for example, you need to open the A/C lines and brake/clutch hydraulic lines to pull the engine for the major service. 355 and TR's are the same. Therefore, it only makes sense you'd need to refill and test those systems as part of the service.

There's no way he can do it for under 5K unless he gives it away. Even with the "Rifledriver deal" on parts (and it's frankly not that great), he still wouldn't have time to even put the key in the ignition for your price. I understand where you're going with this thread, but just think it's off target a bit. Shops have substantial overhead -- payroll, insurance, rent, etc. that a DIY guy doesn't.

Using Sport Auto (my local folks) as an example, I want them to make enough money so they're still in business when I need them in the future. If 'Ferrarioldman' says a particular job will take xx hours, I have to believe him. He's been working on the cars for 30 years, been trained in Italy a gazallion times, etc. etc. Believe me, I (and I only speak for myself here) would gladly pay a few extra thousand dollars if it meant my Ferrari were given a thorough, professional 30K service and it enabled me to drive worry-free for the next few years. Yeah, you read that right.

Y'all should eavesdrop on my telephone one day. You'd be stunned at how many completely screwed up Ferraris there are in this world.

 

I guess if you all want to pick nits, fine. I don't need this garbage. If you all don't know what the heck is being discussed, if all you want to do is argue, be my guest. I have all along went the way of early belt replacement. Anyone who has read anything I have written knows where I stand. I also think anyone here with more than an ounce of brain tissue knows EXACTLY what a belt service is, and making it rediculous just shows someones body extremity. I refuse to have any further input on this subject. And Brian, oh never mind.

 

Paul, I think what you did wrong was to say "Major", when what you meant was "Belt change and oil change".... which can easily be done in 10 hours as you said.

Brian is 100% correct (except... do you REALLY change the carb needle valves at a major? I don't, and have only ever needed to do it once as a repair.)

 

In all of these discussions about belt life, one often hears comparisions of the 30k/5 year rule for a Ferrari versus whatever for a Nissan, BMW, etc. Usually the comparision is made that the more expensive Ferrari requires a belt change much more often than a run of the mill Nissan. And this is probably true. But remember the following:

Belt stress is a function of (with many other items) engine rpm. And the relationship is not linear, but more close to a power law function close to a squared ratio. (It is not exactly a squared ratio for reasons too boring for this thread.) What this means is that an engine that sees a rms (root mean squared) value of 3000 rpm (say a Nissan) versus an rms of 4800 (Say a Ferrari) will see about (4800^1.5 to about 1.8)/(3000^1.5 to about 1.8) or about 2.0 to about 2.3 times the stress (or about half the life)

Now I have just thrown out some hypothetical numbers here, but the point is that, like belt to like belt, one that is running at a higher (either averaged or instantaneous) rpm will see proportionally higher stresses and a proportionally lower lifespan than the lower rpm belt. It's called physics.

In the end it is all about odds and statistics: Statistically you are probably safe in letting the car run longer than the recommended life. (Ferrari undoubtably is quite conservative in their numbers-It is safer for them!) but then you take that risk that it may break. As a group an owner is better off taking the risk (As the risk is shared by the entire group, and it will generally be someone else's car that breaks) but as an individual you may be better off in not taking the risk, as it is your car that is in danger.

So it is basically insurance: And insurance, to quote Ambrose Bierce, is as follows:

Insurance: An ingenious modern game of chance in which the player is permitted the comfortable belief that he is beating the man who owns the table.

(For those curious, check out Ambrose Bierce on the net-a very clever fellow.)

 

Absolutely. I think I've said it at least a dozen times over the years on here...

Belt life (and all engine wear) is basically exponential. The higher you rev it, and the longer you rev it highly, the more accelerated everything gets.... not just the car... the wear too!

 

you are right to a point. the reason BMW, Honda, etc.. go longer is the belt itself. Ferrari uses a very old design, the others do not. this is why i did something about it and changed the design, modern technology and a longer belt life. bottom line the belt design being used is inferior and has by the industry been fased out for over 25yrs.

edit BMW uses chains FYI

 

You're comparing new Hondas to old Ferrari.

In 1974, Hondas belts were nothing clever either.

360/550 have very good belts.

 

I don't know anything about Honda, but I do know that Lexus specifies 5 years (or maybe even 3?) for our 2000 RX-300.

Of course, for most japanese cars it's not an issue because they hit the mileage first anyway. The only thing unusual about Ferrari's schedule is that most Ferraris are not driven very many miles in a year.

Oh, and the fact that the belt change on the Lexus was $350...

 

Ferrari may be taking a conservative position with their numbers but I really don't see any negative impact on them. If you look at the first entry in this thread, Brian refers to documentation from FNA (and also Ferrari of San Francisco) stating the full 30,000 mile service was performed on January 21, 2001 - with approx. 17,000 miles on the car -- it now has 30K miles.

What recourse would there be with Ferrari if the problem had occurred at 20K or 25K miles, or even 12 months after the service had been performed according to the documentation they have supplied to me?

 

Well this thread looks fun so I'll just chime in hear if no one minds. I finished what I would discribe as a major on my 355C and had 35 hrs. into it. Changed belts, tensioners(not bearings as they were done 5000 miles ago)Had the alternator rebuilt, changed its idler bearing, new cam seals, new cam cover gaskets, new coolant hoses(blue silicon not Fcar), Oil, coolant, brake fluid and four of those air bleed screws on the throttle bodies and other misc. stuff. Didn't have to mess with A/C as CH cars don't have that. So.. 1200.00 in parts and whatever the goin' rate is for 35 hrs. I have no overhead as Brian and Dave have and I know what it costs to run a business: Ins., IRS cut of the action, workmans comp, Unemployment Ins., power bill, tele, wages for employees, etc. etc. etc. What I did would have to cost 7000.00 or better so I could just have some beans on the table if it were business that was doin' this for a living. Now then lets discuss customer b*t*hin' about bul*sh*t they don't anything about....now what's that worth for a days time. Didn't mean to rant it is just expensive in this country to do stuff and the little guy isn't gettin' rich doin' it. And with all due respect ten hours to do a major on a 308 seems very optimistic, heck just gettin' the A/C pump out of the way would take 1/2 that time, HaHaHa. The ones I have took longer than that. Well there I feel better. Regards, Vern

 

What is blue silicon hoses?? Cheaper? Better? Do 348 and 355 use the same coolant hoses??

 

I'm pretty sure 348 use rubber, and 355 use Silicon, or maybe it's just later 355's that have it.

F Car silicon is black, and lasts ages (never seen a age failure, only damage).

F car silicon is crazy $$$, Blue is widely available, but looks wrong IMO. Fine for Race cars, but roadies need black for originality.

 

we use MACK truck silicone which is either white or clear, It´s GREAT!!! never leaks and is not expensive!!

 

Nice tip. Lots of advantages to using clear silicone hoses.

 

I'm in the process of ordering a set of 6 UK-made black silicone hoses for the 348. Works out at £90GB ($150US). I'll let you know how it goes.

 

No kidding, CLEAR!?! How clear? Just that you can tell there's some green fluid inside or can you see well through it? I think I know where the Mack truck dealer is in town, that'd be fun!

 

Sounds good - keep us posted.