As I understand from what I've read of some Skip Barber stuff (ok, what's in the GT4 manual ) what matters more is what wheels the car drives. FWD cars can't turn and accelerate at the same time like an RWD car can because the front tires do both, so you have to change your line and when you get on it to compensate. Of course, I'm willing to reckon Petah here will be able to explain better and more accurately than I
Great discussion. I will be doing the 2 day advanced school at Lime Rock in June and my first Race Series again at Lime Rock in July. Its great to hear the experts here share there well earned experience. I am glued to this thread
Chuck great info. I understand what your geting at with the process flow. Mine looked something like this by the end of my 3 day skip school Brakes; Brakes & Steering; Steering & Gas; Gas I was leaving out the Brakes, Steering AND Gas step. Wow, brakes and gas at the same time Hmmm I will try and introduce this next time. Thanks
Just remember, as Peter said earlier - Baby Steps! It takes practice and finesse. Then more practice! Next stop - getting out of your own way. Racing is a very physical representation of a very mental game. Cheers, C
Cool thread. "It's all in your head... It's an intellectual exercise, not a bravery test" Thats motor racing, its mainly about intelligence and experience, I have never met a dumb/fast racing driver. Ultimately any intelligent person can win in motor racing as its only the last 10ths that seperate the naturals (Senna/Prost/Schumacher) from the "learnt" (Mansell/Hill) and that can be made up for by the car. "The rear engine 911 will brake better and more efficiently because of the way that the weight distribution significantly and substantially changes, but the light front end will require more driver machinations to get the front to hook up, such as more aggressive trail-braking (or "brake-turning") thus delaying that all-important throttle application" Not sure about that one, the rear of a 911 wants to overtake the front so much that I find using the throttle (or not) is enough to help the car into a turn without using the brake (unless left foot braking). Plus I would say the theory of a rear engined car like the 911 is to get it rotated as soon as possible (engine position helps do this as above) so the car gets straight as early as possible as then you can use all that rear axle weight for traction out of the corner. I would say a 911 turns slightly later/sharper and clips later than a mid engined car. Someone also said "slow in fast out, early apex" - its "slow in fast out, late apex". Except for Schumacher, Alonso and Raikonen (fast in, fast out) thats where the last 10ths are. I find the most difficult part of "being quick" is braking and corner entry, with practice everyone can achieve good exit speed and subsequently be quick on the straights, but maintaining that exit speed whilst entering the corner on the limit - thats the "magic". (16 years coaching, 10 of which with Jim Russell in UK, recently Silverstone)
I'd like to add a clairification on that one: An early apex is not a sin, it's a tool. And like any tool, if improperly used or used in an inappropriate application, the results will not match the intention. Indeed! Well, that's it for me today - off to Chicago for a week. I look forward to seeing this thread upon my return! IF I can check in while in Chi-Town, I will - 'cause I am diggin' it! Cheers all & Be Well, C
Ah man, so much to remember. Know I gotta know Tai Chi to go faster! In my misspent youth, I used to race motorcycles on dirt courses that we used to call TT races. (This was before motocross.) I remember one wag who put a decal on my gas tank. It simply said, "Go Faster, Dammit!" Ah, glory days! Actually, I can't wait until the next track day. One thing nice about having a Spec Miata is that you don't have to worry about hurting the car. It loves abuse, which is more than I can say about me. Keep it up. Who knows? Maybe I'll be able to beat Rob some day. Dale
Peter a most humble thanks. When i see the video there is joy and amazement that it is actually ME at the wheel! Also see the too early apex there, could have been harder on the brakes there, later braking possible there, get on the gas earlier here..." You see, at this stage i err on the side of caution (to save my life, you know, that self-preservation instinct). My instructor for the SCDA event (Monday only, was set to solo Tuesday) was great. He taught me the lines, braking points, etc. The FCA instructor (on Wednesday, solo Thursday) took it another level and i was not 'getting it' all the way UNTIL he took me out in his car. He wanted me to go deep past apex cone on two key turns. As you know, that also means going hewadforth THAT MUCH closer to those tire barriers... Once i could see and FEEL what he was referring to while being a passenger in his car it all made sense. Still, i flubbed here and there, yet my times were progressively better and as weird as this sounds to me, i was working the car less and driving her was easier. Seems that my earlier efforts were, to some degree, fighting the car to get things done whereas after the ride along in the instructor's car i see to let the car do the work. Again, many thanks for the compliment and am now data mining the videos in hopes of learning more from those days so can better things. FYI: Have video from the last day but am ashamed to post link to it. Was tired from the previous three days, got lazy and did not always downshift at some points... Frankly, went on the track for all four session, though for the last three sessions i only spent about 75% on the track and left the sessions early. Did not go out for the final 30 minutes open track session. Color me exhausted so it was best to NOT be on track and just take it easy. Am amazed how the pros can spend hour upon hour in the endurance races (or event a 'mere' F1 90 minute stint). Have a deeper respect for their amazing talent and endurance.
Richard, you're probably right on your assessment of the 911 "hammer" weight distribution influence on early-rotation and it's desirability to use that quality to get the turn-in done quickly. I envy your playground, the Crainer curves, Copse and Bridge all look and feel awesome on all of my PC-based simulations! At the risk of exposing myself as not completely unbiased, I must say that I am substantially prejudiced against P-cars. <grin> While I understand, accept and grudgingly respect that they may be one of the best production-based track cars, I race against them ALL the time (in off-brand cars, mainly Italian) and derive major sadistic pleasure from gulling them into snap-spins and other frolics! <very big grin> I also find it inordinately easy to "get into the heads" of other P-car drivers on the track, more often to my benefit, even if it is just earning the, again, grudging respect from them in the form of veiled compliments like "I never saw one of those cars go THAT fast before..." <very, very big grin> Still, I still remember my first drive in a Euro 3.3 liter 930 in 1981. I'll remember the feeling of my eyeballs pressing into the back of my head, my head and even the skin on my face smashed backwards as the boost needle wrapped around the dial as long as I live! Even driving 935's later on on the racetrack did not equal the visceral, illicit thrill of unleashing all that horsepower for the first time... I'm glad I drive a Ferrari! -Peter
Bryan, I'm afraid that we have left the original premise of this thread by migrating to "fast in/fast out" and leaving "slow in/fast out" in the dust. I haven't had any experience with racing vintage cars, but if they are anything like vintage motorcycles, you're not going to have much of a choice in most corners. There is a reason that "slow in/fast out/late apex" is known as the "Driver's Ed" line. Simply put, it is the safest way around any corner, particularly in a skinny tire, old banger. I wish it was possible to pop up a white board in these discussions, but if you can picture a sharp left hand turn in your mind, the inherent safety of this line should be apparent. Peter described a "fast in/fast out/early apex" line as an arc. You dive in early toward the apex carrying a LOT of corner speed. Because the laws of physics have not been repealed, the result is a wide track out on the exit. Sometimes, the track out will be too WIDE, and you end up in the grass on the exit, which can flip you if you hit a rut. Compare this to a "slow in/fast out/late apex." Here you are almost making a straight line out of the turn. Because you are way right when you turn in, this allows you to dive bomb the apex and have a lot of room on the track out. All things being equal, which they never are, this late apex approach is safer than Peter's fast line for most of us mortals. This is why they teach this during DE days. Putting all this together means that for most vintage cars there is only one line through most corners, unless you are Sir Moss and you really, really, want to pass that guy in front of you. Hope this helps. Dale
Dale, I agree with you when you say that "slow in, fast out, late apex" is the right way to approach driving on the track in ANY car. I think we all realize that there are as many "lines" out there as there are people who drive them! <grin> I don't think the thread has morphed, I think we're trying to hash this out so that people can learn, as well as illustrate the difference the driver's approach makes. Let's ALL remember that the way the car is driven and whether it stays on the black stuff is solely due to the "loose nut behind the wheel." <big grin> Here I am racing with 250GT LWB "TdeF" 0893GT at T11 at VIR this past weekend. I'm in a stone-stock 1290cc '59 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider Veloce (look at that ROLL!?!?!) on Pirelli P3 155R15 radials. The turn is about an 80 degree right hander taken in 2nd or 3rd gear that has significant elevation rise and good camber gain (6 degrees just past the apex). In this photo, my steering wheel is almost straight and the car is drifting across the "face" of the turn towards a track out that the TdeF has already reached. (VSCCA required no roll bar, no fuel cell, just credentialed drivers, pre-1959 cars and personal safety gear) On entry, I braked gently, turned the wheel before I finished braking (fairly far into the corner), opened the wheel and progressively supplied 65%-85% throttle to maintain that slip angle. Classic "easy in, late(r)-than-mid-apex, preserving speed at the exit" treatment. The physics are the same for everyone, as you say! I do not advocate an early apex, per se, I'm just suggesting that my progression as a driver was helped by someone telling me that I could move the apex closer to turn-in without disaster and gain some benefit. Thanks for bringing the focus back to studying and perfecting the basics, which are the fundamental building blocks for learning. -Peter Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi Peter Unfortunately "progress" has caught up with Craner and Copse. MotoGP has dictated loosing the circuits edge "rumble strips" (whole circuit including Craner about 10" wider) and there are loads of flat (strangley located) curbs down the hill now. What was "just flat" is now, errr, flat... Copse has so much tarmac runoff that anyone making an error just hammers it and gets a quicker laptime if the Marshall's dont report the "cut" (mind you considering the blind entry, apex obscured by end of pitwall, F3's enter flat and I think F1's downshift 1 gear then its flat...). But no CHALLENGE at all anymore. Bridge is OK but still a "new" corner. Donington still flows but for real drivers circuits in the UK try Oulton Park and Cadwell Park. A Porsche 911 handles AMAZINGLY well considering its engine location, but who said they had to stick it in such a weird location in the first place! So am I Richard
Hey, no fair, not posting any mo. You gotta keep em coming. Suggested topics: 1. Throttle steering, and 2. I don't know how to say this, but "vision adjustment." For example, I find that when I haven't been on the track for a while, it takes a few laps to get my eyes adjusted. It is not necessarily tunnel vision, but it seems that it takes a while to get my depth perception up to speed (sic). Is this just me? Dale
Hi Dale, Gonna be short 'cause my $10/day connection here in the room sucks! No telling when it's gonna drop, etc. 1 - There's a lot of talk about TTO / Throttle steering in the thread. To put it simply, lift in mid turn to rotate the car and close the line. Reapply the throttle slightly BEFORE the car is where you want it to give it time to be caught & stop the rotation. (Pressing the throttle to break the rear tires loose instead of lifting is significantly more risky and less predicatble, so Trailing Throttle Oversteer (lift to rotate) is the preferred method. 2 - This is not just you. If not practiced, it is our human nature to want to look and focus closer to the car. It takes practice and even the pros look short. Hurley Haywood is rumored to have had a sticker on his race car's windshield that said "Look Up" - if he could read it, he knew he needed to look further down the track. Practice your distance vision on the street so that it's not so slow/awkward on the track. Hope this helps! Cheers, Chuck
I tried contact lenses a while ago and when I complained to the optician that they were OK except that detail was a little blurd when focusing as far as the eye can see he asked "and when do you need to see that far away" I replied "everytime I drive a car or ride a 'bike" lol...hence I dont wear contacts. Not sure why its human nature to focus close though, all you are doing is looking where you are heading the faster you go the sooner you get there hence the further you have to look - I do it automatically.
While throttle control is a useful tool to have in a driver's back pocket(throttle steer = planning,TTO = reacting), vision and the subject of eye movement has been, IMO, the biggest and best addition to most driver training and coaching curricula. Pioneered by Bertil Roos and enhanced by Russell, Barber, et al (in particular, Ross Bentley's excellent series of books), developing an "ocular motion" technique has gained traction as a key ingredient to a driver's success. (pun intended!) In school, we constantly stress, "see everything, focus on nothing," primarily in an effort to keep the driver's eyes moving. Some of the introductory classroom sessions deal with just that, the idea of developing a "scan" pattern that you can repetitiously follow to develop good vision habits. After developing this habit, driver's can then begin to filter out what is and isn't important out of the data gathered in the scan so as to retain some "headroom" in their processing capacity. Moving their eyes laterally, "left mirror, off left front fender, over hood, rear view mirror, off right front fender, right side mirror" and back to the left mirror again, is the basic drill. This allows folks to begin looking "outside" the car without losing track of where the corners of the car are, very important to position the car properly even if just to hit your marks. Then, we concentrate on "up-down" movement, similar to Hurley's reminder sticker. The idea being to look as far down the road as possible. It is a physiological fact that, when under stress (and low-time {or less experience than when track-driving becomes second nature} track participants ARE under stress), the human body undergoes a reaction to that stress by succumbing to the primordial "fight or flight" adrenaline rush. When that occurs, the vision automatically narrows to a contact patch about 2' x 4' about 50 feet in front of the car, no matter how quick you are going! <grin> The key is to adopt exercises and a skill set to overcome that normal and deeply ingrained reaction. I don't care if you have two years at Le Mans, if you feel in danger, your field of vision will dangerously narrow! I think of how often mine has when headed three-abreast into T1 at Atlanta or the Inner Loop at the Glen, with FRIENDS! <very big grin> When I was a student of Brian Redman's, he would use his personal experience to help us remember what was important. For vision, he used picking up crowd behavior to warn him of hazards ahead. At Spa one year, he caught out of the corner of his eye (this at 160 mph in a 917!?!?!) umbrellas being raised in a grandstand some way around a slower corner coming up ahead. This alerted him of the precipitation ahead and saved him his car and possibly injury. Redman would relate the importance of vision, not only as a self-preservation tool, but as an indicator of "excess processing capacity" and a desirable gauge of how in control of a situation the driver was. As drivers gain experience, they become more relaxed, and part of that relaxation allows more and better use of your eyes to keep tabs on flag conditions, track surface conditions and other traffic. Proper vision inestimably aids a drivers planning, and successful planning and execution is what makes a good driver a great one. -Peter
Thanks Peter and Chuck. I do remember from when I was young and stupid (as opposed to old and dumb) and raced motorcycles that you never fix on something that you wanted to avoid (like someone who has fallen in front of you.) Where ever you look, the motorcycle or car will go. So to avoid something, don't look at it! Look at your escape route, instead. It stands to reason that if you are constantly scanning your horizon, you have a greater chance of seeing potential problems and, even better, escape options. In fact, this is one of the reasons that I shy away from early/blind apexs. I know that corner workers are supposed to alert you of any problems, but I still have these trust issues. The point about relaxing is also a great one. Again, going back to my young and stupid days, one turning point was when I realized that I was holding my breath in corners. Not good. My current gut check is relaxing my shoulders. If my shoulders are tense, then I know that I need to take a split second "Tai Chi" moment and relax. Keep those cards and letters coming, Dale
Good column by Randy Pobst in current issue of SCCA Sports Car magazine received today. Covers this thread almost verbatim. Dale, that's why I like the PC simulations so much. They help with trusting the blind brows and crests, if they're accurate. Like you said, it's a trust issue. <grin> -Peter
Before my frist time at Laguna Seca, my friend who has raced there for years told me to get on Playstation and drive it in Gran Tourismo 3. I did and it help me remember the corners. When I arrived to the track the evening before the race weekend, we "walked" the track in GT3 and he showed me where the turn-in, apex and track out are for SpecMiata. All were very helpful when first practive session started, I felt very comfortable immediately, and didn't have to spend time learning where the track is. But the biggest help was the corkscrew. He showed me the 3 big oak trees to look for as you make the turn down the corkscrew, that gave me the track reference for me to know where to turn in in order to be aiming at the middle tree which places the car on the right side curb as you head down. During the race in traffic, I was able to use the 3 trees to judge where I am when out of position and recover for turn 8 to set up for turn 9. I'd say the simulations are worth the time!
Do you know if there are any for the track at Mt. Tremblant? I'm going there next month as part of the Ferrari Driving Experience. Dale
I just got acquainted with the 1985 RUF BTR on GT4...took off all the driver aids and selected manual transmission and tried a few laps of the Nurburgring. Let me just say I have new found respect for Porsche drivers. That thing is incorrigible. If I owned that car in real life, I seriously doubt I would lend it to anybody at all for fear that they may smear themselves all over the scenery. Is the best way to drive such a car on such a circuit by sliding it around or braking three corners before your apex of choice? BTW I am not a "GT amateur" but very much a racing amateur...
MtTremblant is available for GPL (Grand Prix Legends) I have it and pretty sure its the new layout but I may be wrong its called stjovite. I could sort a copy of the track for you but you need GPL to run it.
