How many numskulls will go?

Florida isn't that flat if you know where to look. The North and West sides of my county (Orange) can get pretty hilly at some points. On I-75 heading up North towards Ocala, you'll go through some large elevation changes. I don't know how much, but it feels more than 100' up and down. If it does come down to moving land around, it shouldn't be a problem. Disney dug out a lot of land to make some lakes. Granted, they started out with real lakes, but they drained them and made them larger.

 

That's not actually carbon fiber, that's graphite matting chemically converted en sito to silicon carbide to augment those silly chalk tiles. (In college, the materials prof passed one of the prototype tiles around the class. People panicked when I lit a Bic lighter under it. (Think about it.))

On a modern shuttle, the structure should be carbon fiber, and the entire exterior should be that graphite/silicon carbide stuff. Enough with those fragile tiles. (And I think we've learned that the utility of a post-reentry engine for powered landings more than offsets the weight penalty -- which would be more than made up for by the weight savings by using carbon fiber structural elements. And it could be aerodynamically stronger, so less (or no) throttle back for max-Q.)

(Oops: after a bit of reading, it seems that they're still tweaking that leading edge stuff, including research on ceramic composites.)

But I digress ...

One reason that NASA doesn't get funding for infrastructure updates is that they only get press coverage when something really bad happens.

Forget the "Booze" and "Butts" ads along the grandstands. How about posters from current space programs decorating the course fences?

Hmm: Could be a bit of a tongue twister for the announcers, though: "Alonso accelerates along Apollo straight" ... "Here comes Schumacher through the Shuttle Chicane ..."
(It might be more fitting for turns to be named for Grissom, Chaffee, White, Scobee, Resnick, Husband, McCool, etc.)

 

Until F1 developes any kind of ground swell in the States, there is no ideal location for a race. Already, the infrastructure and surrounding location are more highly scrutinized than at most other races. Take a look at the calendar, and how many of the other tracks sit smack in the middle of a thriving cultural center with easy access both to the city and the circuit? Montreal is a great city, but nowhere else does it take so long to go so short a distance as it does from downtown to the island. And that's just to the front gate! Australia and Monaco, I guess. But the reality is, most of the tracks are in the middle of nowhere. I would almost say they would be better off taking the throwback approach with a track like Road America. Build a nice froo-froo paddock with some main straight bleachers. Build up earth embankments around the circuit for general admission. And then put in a bunch of extra new bath houses. You would see 50,000 people camping on the grounds for the entire weekend without a care for urban night life. Kohler is only 10 miles down the road, and if that's not nice enough, the honchos could helicopter to Milwaukee or even Chicago.

 

Why not bring it back to Phoenix?????????




Just kidding !!!!!

Ducking for cover

 

Nah--NASCAR will just get it banned any way

 

im going, i have been to every f1 race since the first one and am not about to stop

 

I can only be half a numscull for Fri night downtown and Sat qualifying, but I will do my best to drink High Tech. Rio!

 

I'm going. Hell, I had a great time last year. It was crazy. I wasn’t following the news due to other priorities. (partying) So when everyone pulled into the pits after the warm up lap I was freaking out. I'll never forget it. Once in a lifetime. (I hope.)

"Robert only follow the Ferrari."

 

Glad to have found another space monkey. And even one who knows his stuff. Dug out some of my pics, thought you might appreciate them.

Yes, this is way OT. But wait: One of the more recent Shuttle flights had the Italian built logistics module and an Italian astronaut on board for a trip to the Space Station. After their return to Earth, the whole crew got invited to visit the Ferrari factory as a PR trip to showcase a jewel of the Italian high tech industry.
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So the leading edges are some silicon thing and not Carbon-carbon? How similar is carbon fiber and carbon-carbon? What pissed me off a lot recently was when Bush said 2010 is when the shuttle program gets cut. There isn't anything that could be designed and built by that time to send up.

 

Depends on the section of the leading edge, but most is carbon-carbon, which is quite different from carbon fibre.

Bush actually got my vote for his 2010 deadline. It is the only way to get us off this dangerous, outdated and restricted to LEO vehicle. The gap until we have the CLV up and running shouldn't be that big and probably similar to what would happen if we had another moratorium due to yet another Shuttle disaster.

Not trying to bash Shuttle, but it is time to put it to rest. It was an interesting design exercise that lead nowhere unfortunately.

 

The outer surface is a silicate glass coating over silicon carbide.

Good heat tolerance comes from a tight crystal structure -- the strongest crystal structure is diamond. But NASA didn't have the budget for that. The next best is silicon carbide. A carbon matting can be chemically converted to silcon carbide in place on the leading edges and nose cap.

They've been finding issues on the wing leading edges, that zinc oxide contaminants are leading to pinholes in the silicon carbide layer. (The nose cap is normally covered and isn't getting this issue. They're still experimenting with options. I didn't read all the details, but the current design appears to have evolved quite a bit from the last design notes I read in the '80s.

Agreed. Shuttle was designed as part of an orbital infrastructure system that never got built.

But those SRMs are a disaster. They cost as much to reuse as to replace, have no throttle, no abort options, and that o-ring issue. And solid rockets on a manned vehicle is a propulsion method pretty much disproved by Wile E. Coyote.

After reading the Rodgers Commission Report, I concluded that the Challenger was lost to sabotage -- by the US Congress. They should have coughed up the extra non-recurring funds to develop liquid fuelled external boosters. They'd have saved it many times over in operating costs. (But not before the next election).

The Shuttle was designed to do two things: go up, and come down. We've lost one on each operation, now. It's past its "use by" date.


But there's lots of "cool" stuff in the space program. If running a "space race" on KSC property would get NASA better press, I'd say go for it. I wonder if they could design a dual-use combination pit lane garages and observation bunkers. (Just so you don't loose the garage investment if an abort fell on a garage between races.)

 

Andreas, I went to the first launch, Sally Ride's first trip, and the first night launch. I told my ex when the first shuttle took off that this expereince was better than sex, she did not apporeciate my honesty. Got divorced a couple years later.

For the night launch I had a pass to get me just opposite the clock they show on TV. Really close, near the VIP grandstand. Very dark outside. Two Nikon F2 Photomic cameras on tripods, motordrives, slight launch delay, clock stops at 10 seconds, so I focused and refocused. Photog next to me was with Newsweek, he had the same set up. Everythings ready. Waiting, waiting, the count down starts, ignition.

The sky lights up like daylight for miles and miles, my jaw drops, I look up in shock, like God opened up the sky and lighting was everywhere, loud but not like an Atlas, I look at the Newsweek guy, both of us shouted "holy s**T!", we turn to watch a path light up to heaven.

Forgot to take the pictures.

Actually I finally got my act together when the shuttle was about two miles up. But I will never forget that night. From my yard in Boca, on a clear day, I can see a shuttle launch 147 miles away as it lifts off.

 

Miller Motorsports Park in Salt Lake City.

4.5 mile state of the art road course.

Salt Lake is centrally located, and the track is close to a major airport. There are tons of hotels and tourist accomodations that were constructed for hosting the Winter Olympics.

http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/trackFacts.cfm

http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/trackOverview.cfm

Indy might have more history, but the track just can't compare with MMP.

 

The irony of this is that there's currently a quiet rumor floating around that ISC (with a Joint venture partner) is negotiating with Tony George to buy the IMS. This rumor would explain why Tony is suddenly interested in unifying CART and IRL.... It builds more value for the speedway by making the 500 into the race it deserves to be.

Oh... and ISC's joint venture parnter on this.... None other than Disney.

Time will tell if the rumors are true.

Great thread, BTW.

 

I watched the first launch from across the bay in Titusville. For the other two launches I stood next to the firing room (a tad closer than the clock). I had a tripod with me, but realized, that it would be too cumbersome with the roll maneuver and the arcing into the sky, so all free hand firing away as she leaps off the pad. An entire roll of film and she was gone.

Watched the landing next to the pond where she drops the landing gear. Those were the days. In a pre 9/11 world. Not to be repeated with today's security, which is also why NASA would never open that area for a race.

PS: The shot below is actually a daytime launch: John Glenn's 2nd attempt at space flight. The SRB's fire is so bright that the camera closed the iris and darkened the background. A night launch would show no blue in the sky, but just black.

 

Pity, because it would be so fitting: NASA has the records for both the fastest (Apollo 10) and slowest (crawler/transporter) manned vehicles ever built.

But in the "those were the days" category, the real try-to-remember-to-breathe launch experience were the Saturn Vs. To see three megatons of moon ship hurl itself into the sky, making the sound of a million Tubis, was quite an experience.

 

Nice tidbit of info. Didn't know that. I suppose that was on reentry?

I think Car & Diver once did one of their car test statistics for the crawler including 0-60mph, turning radius, miles per gallon etc. It was a hoot.

 

Yep, reentry. Check out these othe records, some pretty cool stuff: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/performance/q0023.shtml

 

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(speed) (I especially like the part about "Maximum speed of a Ferrari F50 GT1" being next to "Speed of propagation for mammalian motor neurons".)

But in the room for improvement department: The land speed record on the moon is only 18 KPH (John Young, Apollo 16 Rover): http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=46948
(Plenty of room for a "Loony F1 Race", but transportation might be a bit of an issue, and it's a little short of hotels.)
(The Mother of All Fly-Away races? )

0-60 for the crawler would be a bit tough: it tops out at 2 MPH unloaded. Carrying an Apollo/Saturn stack, it maxes at 0.75 MPH, but with a "featherweight" Shuttle, can manage a blazing 1MPH.

 

I used to program tracks for GrandPrix 3. In a loony phase we did put together a lunar track.

What I really wanted to do was a simulator for the lunar rover, but there wasn't much braking/cornering skills involved at 20 mph. Although some folks can't manage a right turn at 16mph...

 

Except on lunar dust with only 1/6 gravity giving you traction on a steel mesh tire.

The people who can't manage a right turn right go into NASCAR.

 

Get rid of grooved tires, more mechanical grip! Get rid of the aero downforce.

 

The real "numskulls" were the moron fans throwing bottles, etc on the track in the path of the cars and generally acting like children at Indy last year. Sure it was a lousy deal, and if I had traveled all the way there for that fiasco, I would've definitely wanted a refund, but that's no excuse to throw debris on a race track........

 

Well that's one way to reduce aerodynamic grip -- get rid of the air.

But a Lunar Racer sim might be interesting: You have all the mass = momentum, but you only have 1/6 G holding the tires to the surface to apply force to change that momentum vector (turns, stops, etc).

And no brake cooling ducts.

Luckily, those F1 driving suits aren't all that far from being pressure suits already ... they even have their own air supply.

--
What's that I see? A knight in armor with a rubber chicken? (Too silly! Too silly!)