Why does Ferrari still use cambelts?

The chain system proved unreliable in the early Dino many jumped time and crashed pistons, belts reduced weight and mass allowing higher rpm and better reliability

 

The F50 uses a Morse type chain for the cam drive. Very tight, very accurate and VERY hard on the gears it rides on. F1 style "Sprint" engine vs street designed engine for the road cars. One is designed with 100k miles in mind, the other is not. Hell, the F50 only has one "gasket" used in the whole engine., everything else is O-ringed and Cooper ringed.
High RPM with long term reliabilty requires belts given the technology that was available at the time. Prediction is that the chains will give way to belts again in the future. The simply transmit too much vibration to the valve train which doesnt work at high RPM.

Dave

 

So far just about everything (both questions & answers) that have been posted to this thread have been said several times before in the dozen or so cam belt threads, some of which have titles very close to this thread.

Before posting to this thread, go search the archives & read them. Then, IFF you have something NEW to contribute feel free to post.

 

2000 model year Honda S2000 = 120bhp per litre
2000 model year Ferrari 360 = 111bhp per litre

Current Audi S4 and RS4 have cam chains, had an S4 chain snap within 1000 miles from new...

 

Or alternatively, if you are interested in this discussion then read the thread and contribute, if you know it all already then don't bother reading or posting...! sheesh...I thought this was a forum not a book.

 

amen.

 

wrong, the new honda S2000 makes 240 hp out of a 2.1 liter engine, thats 109 hp per liter
and a f430 has 490 hp out of a 4.3 L engine, thats 113.95 per liter

they dosqueeze horses but not as good as ferrari

 

So far it's a rehash of what's been said far too many times.

 

A quick search found that:

999cc Ducati 140HP
1000cc Yamaha 175 HP
1000cc Suzuki 178HP

It looks like car technology has a way to go to catch up to the lowly motorcyle.

 

Lol. Of course cars give you the option of not dying when you hit a piece of freeway debris...

Regarding the earlier comments, I tend to agree with Artvonne that berating Ferrari for producing a high-maintenance machine is kind of misguided. When you buy a Ferrari, you're forsaking economical ownership for performance and design (a Ford Explorer body is cheap to stamp out and paint; an F430 is not, etc.) Belts aren't obsolete technology.

 

remember that bike engines dont use a big flywheel(dont need that much torque to move a big body around), so less rotating mass,
the can rev harder and faster,and have less vibration so the can REALLY squeeze hp's out of them without compromising

 

roflmao

 

Besides belts, chains and gears, there's other technologies around the corner for valve timing. 100% electronic systems with no cams or rotating masses for valve timing. In the next decade or two, that's where the cutting edge motors are headed.

Ken

 

My friend said his VW GTI uses a solenoid that pushes the valves up and down and everything is timed by the computer. Does this mean no timing belt? If so I think thats a heck of a Technology.

 

As ha been said this topic has been talked about. But it seems that if the big question is why the belts do not last that long it is not that the belts are cheaply made. It is that we the owners do not drive our cars that often.

People here are comparing regular road cars to their Ferrari. Most Honda owners will drive more in one year than some owners will drive their Ferrari in the whole time they one that particular Ferrari. With people selling their 360/430/550 etc... with only 1200 miles in a year. What do we as owners think will happen with rubber that gets used a lttle under a heavy stress load once in awhile and then at rest for long extended periods of time?

I feel Ferrari has set the belt replacement as a time vs mileage as we don't drive nearly enough miles in our Ferraris. So Ferrari to protect itself set 3 years as the average life span of the belts. And dealers realize as do Independant shops that a damaged engine is far more costly and scary than a $5,000+/- bill for belts. Also every dealer be it Authorized Ferrari or not will ask if the owner has done the belts. If not then big reduction in what they will buy your car for.

People here that are passionate about Porsches and compare Porsche to Ferrari drive their Porsches more than their Ferraris. Yes/No?

How many owners here have owned Porsches?
How many miles a year do you drive your Porsche?
How many miles a year do you drive your Ferrari?
How many miles a year do you drive your SUV/ Sedan etc..?

All IMHO

Thanks,

 

Scroll the ENTIRE site and see if you can find a technical topic that has not been discussed in one form or another in the past.
I have watched tallented, informative people driven off the site by this type of thing. I have never seen the merit in this type of post but I assure you that it will change my posting habits. Hell, there are those here that will take the time to make a post regarding someones spelling and grammer, to what end?
Yesterday I visited a site that has the same format but is for Jeeps so I could find information regarding a problem on my daughters vehicle. Same topic discussed in an untold number of postings and headings and never a response of this nature. Yes, I did find the information needed and it did fix the Jeep. No, I never found the amount of discussion to be perplexing as each link brought up a slightly different view point that had merit and was worth investigating and discussing further.
Brings to mind a quote my parents had hanging on the wall in the house I grew up in. My father, an engineer with the Apollo program (think they ever discussed a topic more than once?), taught me to reason things out before acting.

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."
Lord Kelvin, 1883

I for one have learned new things from this thread and compliment those that have posted before me.

Dave

 

Agreed, Dave, and well put.

Less people here seem to do their own work, but are glad to advise those who do so. I lurk here, learn a lot, but all over this forum, the "slap down" is common. I started to post relevant searches when a repost pops. Have to post a repost .jpg too , but at least it is a helpful post.

My favorite, and the engine that made Ferrari what it is, is the Colombo 12, and it had chains. By the time the tipo 168 arrived, it was getting 280-320bhp out of 3L, in early 60's. Longevity from 1947 until 1968-9 with 5 LeMans wins seems to show impressive reliability, and many of the older, tired Colombo 12's I've seen and driven still run pretty well. I don't recall if they were interference engines, but I don't believe so. Still, impressive.

I completely agree F-cars are NOT driven enough. Everyone seems to want a garage queen, but all of them, especially the cambelt cars, seem to run better the more you use them. Sitting in one spot with tension flatspots tires, and cambelts "take a set" too. Lots of miles or lots of heat cycles also beat up rubber, so tires can wear out in 7K miles due to sitting, or due to someone running very hard and cycling them to hard/brittle junk. Same goes for cambelts. I wouldn't drive on 5yo 1200mile tires, nor a cambelt.

My 1.6 eurocents

 

Dave,
I've been a strong contributor to this site for over 5 years.
I agree that almost any tech topic has at least 1 thread, some have more than, and most of those threads still aren't anywhere near exhaustive.

However, the cam belt longevity topic has been discussed so many times from so many different angles that very few posts are non-repetitious. I didn't say new posts shouldn't be made, just that they should contain new information.

Several times people have asked for a sticky cam belt thread. I think this is long overdue. It would be nice if all the cam belt threads could be merged into it.

Sorry, but this particular topic has become a personal hot button.

That's a great practice. If we don't get a sticky cam belt thread, then a collection of links to the previous threads should get posted as soon as the topic comes up again.

Over the years, the general consensus has been change the belts every 5 years if it's a street car, 3 years if it's tracked, or the mileage limit is reached earlier.

 

Here's a fairly complete list of the reasonably long threads discussing cam belt replacement whys & how-tos. I remember several more significant discussions of the topic, but don't know why my search didn't turn them up. However, it's a start at an Index:

Why does Ferrari still use cambelts?
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111403

35,000 miles and 11+ years on belts!
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97833

308 Cam Belt broke..... anyone wanna help
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86341

308 Cam belts do Fail....
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88755

CAMBELT REPLACEMENT EXPOSED
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64504

308 Cam Belt Change
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56702

Cam Belt replacement
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49430

Change timing belt w/o open cam cover???
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41307

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41306

Cam Belt Drive bearings
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39746

DIY Cam Belt Replacement
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31477

cam belt 7 years, 17K
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19638

Exactly How Do The 308 Cam Belts Fail And So What?
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17246

308 Cam belts do Fail....
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88755

308 Cam Belt Change
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56702

Broken timing belt questions..
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8602

Old FerrariChat threads:

How many YEARS between cam belt changes?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/262132.html

328 cam belts
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/211536.html

Cam Belt Services
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/183142.html

512tr cambelt quote
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/195827.html

308 Cam Belts... cams wont rotate ?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/241768.html

Anyone ever had their cambelt/camchain snap?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/173911.html

328 cam timing belt replacement
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/186738.html

Cam Belt Change-Food for thought
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/251280/3298.html

Replacing Cam Belts on a 79 308GTB
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/256536.html


30,000 mi service/cam belts for 328
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/85786.html

Cam Belts on 328 -- Mileage question
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/164788.html

Broken Cam belt a service history concern?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/277129.html

08 cam pulleys & timing belt replacement
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/207152.html

348: How many YEARS between cam belt changes?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/262132.html

Has anyone had first-hand cambelt failure experience?
http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/199125.html

 

"Sorry, but this particular topic has become a personal hot button."

Take a deep breath, have a cool glass of water.................. You have control of the mouse button, choose not to use it if you see "CAM BELTS" again. You will not have to look hard to find poor technical advise being given, try focusing your energy in that direction so the end result is a positive one. Does this advise sound familure? Use your search feature and you will see what I am talking about.

Dave

 

good question.

 

I agree with Dave H, so what if a topic has been rehashed a 1000 times here, this is not an archive reference book, new posters and members here may have new info on this topic and older members may have also new info to contribute as well, otherwise this board will be come stagnante with old info.

If anyone is tired of a topic don't participate or click the thread.

 

Really? Its been answered so many times that its probably the MOST talked about thing on Ferrarichat.

 

Again, as someone else posted, Ferraris aren't Hondas,and I suspect the material of the cambelt is similar if not the same, perhaps stronger in the Ferrari.

It is not an excuse that inactivity damages cambelts. It is simply the physical characteristics of belts. You see seldom driven Hondas(like those at vacation homes, etc.) also break cambelts.

Oxidation from ozone occurs whether or not the car is used, or garaged for that matter. The nylon/reinforcing fiber inside the rubber belts does try to remain in the shape it cools in, so if you run car until hot, then let it sit, the belt will try to maintain the shape of the position it cooled in. Until it warms up, this stresses the rest of the belt, which is why many cambelts break when cold, not hot.

I don't understand what other answer you seek, but hopefully this has helped.