Ferrari fans/owners often comment on Audi owning Lamborghini, do they comment on Fiat

I wonder if that's why they bought 20+% of VAG...

 

indeed. imagine someone being amazed by madonna and robbie williams songwriting talents.....

 

Title: Evolution of a modern auto manufacturer....

 

I still go under the hood Ralph its really not the buyers fault as they dont control how manufacturers operate. I think however that enthusiast are no different than ones from the 60s but because they really dont have a choice. Its either accept the facts or wave your favorite marque goodbye because they cant survive.... Blame it on makers themselves for doing this.. Because afterall.....All it boils down is one word.... PROFIT. Because of so many regulatory hurdles and cost hurdles that are effecting auto makers, its forced them to rethink how to streamline manufacturing and share as much components as possible. Fact is that the japanese auto makers were the first to really streamline and cross share platforms with great success. So with succes, others follow. And soon it has become standard practice.... That is why there is such an overwhelming trend to go back to vintage cars by enthusiast. They dont want watered down and there is nothing on the market plaace that isnt.... That seems to be the only alternative nowadays for the enthusiasts. So while enthusiasts may be the same, the automotive landscape no longer can allow manufacturers to produce "purebred" cars anymore...

 

Don't forget about the tossable 208 GTB Turbo. I PM'd you a few months ago about that one.

Ciao

 

Car & Driver, 7/2003
"More Audi influences surface in the car’s construction. The aluminum space frame borrows from the knowledge poured into the new A8 and is produced in the same German factory."

"Lamborghini wants you to believe the 5.0-liter V-10 engine is an all-new creation. Fact is, the V-10 is built alongside Audi’s 4.2-liter V-8 at the engine plant in Gyoýr, Hungary. Essentially, the V-10 is the all-aluminum V-8 with two extra cylinders. Both share the 90-degree angle (forcing engineers to offset the crankshaft pins of the V-10 by 18 degrees to ensure even firing at every 72 degrees of crankshaft rotation), the 88-millimeter bore centers, and the 92.8mm stroke, and the V-10’s 82.5mm bore is just 2mm narrower than the V-8’s. They even share the same chain drive to quad camshafts."

Car & Driver, 9/2003:
"Obviously, it was Audi's deep pockets that made the well-stocked Gallardo launch possible, but there's more than just Audi money in this car. There's an aluminum space-frame body built and painted in an Audi-owned factory. There's a V-10 version of the all-aluminum Audi V-8 nestling just behind the passenger compartment, and there are Audi climate-control panels and switches in the cockpit."

Car & Driver, 2/2004:
"Thank the people’s-car people in Wolfsburg."
"To get Lamborghini to bleed black, Audi has leveraged the brains in its aluminum construction center in Neckarsulm, Germany, to supply the Gallardo’s alloy space frame. It has torn off big checks to upgrade the creaky Lamborghini facilities. It has swum the corporate parts bin and found reliable if somewhat ordinary-looking items for the Gallardo. They include a stereo, a climate-control system, and various dashboard switches and displays."

I daresay that if C&D has gotten it wrong, all these times, and Volkswagen are merely an "outsource" for "Lamborghini" designed components, VW's lawyers would have had their guts for garters by now.

Yes... The Ferrari 599 shares a Ferrari chassis with the Ferrari 612, which like the 430's, and 360 before it, are built in-house.

Yes... The Ferrari 599's engine is a development of the Ferrari engine in the Ferrari Enzo, both of which, along with the 430's are designed, engineered, cast, machined, finished, assembled and proofed in the same factory as the Ferrari F1 cars'.

If Ferrari ever use an engine derived from that designed for a FIAT burghermeister sedan, sourced then in Hungary, and place it in a chassis derived from that FIAT burghermeister sedan, sourced in England say, one might claim some element of equivalence, until such time the distinctions are glaringly obvious.

The Gallardo is truly a triumph of badge engineering but, much less than a Ferrari, it's not even a proper Lamborghini.

 

Ask any true Tifosi and they will tell you that the last REAL Ferrari was the 365 GTB/4 after that, they were just Topolinos.

 

Car and Driver is wrong with regards to where the engine is built. Thats why you dont believe everything you read on the magazines.... The v-10s are indeed assembled at the L factory... I was there and watched them assemble them... There are differences in ecu programming, camshaft profile, compression, etc... Unless they rolled out a couple of engines so that it looks like they are assembling it while I was touring the factory.... I never disputed that castings probably were from the hungary factory though, please read my post carefully... BTW, I also stated casting for ferrari was indeed inhouse, never disagreed with you there....

My statement also stated that many parts are built to lambo specs. But, I never said all the parts are. It would be idiotic to redesign, reinvest into molds, and repurchase parts. the cost savings there are huge for Lamborghini.... Again, please read my statement again...

Honestly, all aluminum chassis are essentially designed and built by alcoa. Audi has strong ties with Alcoa, and it seems ferrari has it too... If you count Alcoa having a plant in Modena as inhouse, then your statement would be true... see this link.
http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/news/news_detail.asp?pageID=240054526&newsYear=2004

Please read the article from Alcoa. Notable from the press release are:

"Production of Ferrari space frame components illustrates Alcoa's pan-European manufacturing and supply capabilities. Cast, extruded and fabricated components are produced in Hungary, Germany and the Netherlands and shipped to Modena, Italy, where they are assembled into the finished space frame at an Alcoa facility inside Ferrari's Scaglietti Works.

Ferrari/Alcoa History

Ferrari and Alcoa first began working together in 1994, when the company was seeking a development partner for an aluminum-structured vehicle to replace its older models. In June of that year, Alcoa assumed the primary design and engineering role for the aluminum spaceframe body structure development, with full production beginning in 1998. To date, Alcoa has supplied more than 12,000 frames to Ferrari for its Modena model -- a model recognized today as one of the best performing sports cars in the world."


To be fair here is a link with audi's ties to alcoa:
http://www.highbeam.com/library/docFree.asp?DOCID=1G1:104745056


Please also note that I mentioned that the trend that is going on even for Ferrari because that is just what small manufacturers have to do to survive...

In summary, brand engineering is prevalent in the modern automotive landscape for all vehicles nowadays.... Virtually every car is a product of brand engineering....

 

Fiat and Alcan did much the same thing over 20 years ago with the X1/9 they prototyped a lightweight (frame 50% lighter and somewhat stronger) version of the X with an all aluminium structure. pity it never went into production, a lighter X (~700kg) with a stronger powerplant (~180hp) would have been a top little twisty-killer.

 

good thing Audi didn't influence Front Wheel Drive to Lamborghini.

 

To avoid hostile takeover of VAG so that they can remain 100% german.

 

I believe what Audi is trying to do it to emulate porsche's success story to become the most profitable sports car company in the world. With that, I believe audi's direction for Lambo will be to make a reliable supercar that is fit for all-weather day to day driving.

Will this be good for the Lambo? Yes, more profit = more budget for R&D.

Will this kill some of it's traditional as italy car maker? I think so, but it will be for good reasons.

 

There is more to the story than that. Ask me over a coffee on Friday.

BTW, Rome is 87F and sunny, get over here!!!

 

AUDI is the best car maker Germany has to offer PERIOD !

AUDI has been such a great engineering influence to VW and PORSCHE, hell if it wasn't for AUDI both VW and PORSCHE would be struggling.

BMW and MERCEDES wish they could hold a candle to AUDI.

 

...A three ton "Lamborghini" SUV can't be far off now.

 

Maybe after Audi figures out how to keep the fronts ends from falling out of the A4,6,8 or keeping check engine lights from comming on every other day,or building a car you don't have to remove almost the entire front end to replace a radiator. Maybe they could remount the AIR pump in a different spot so it sucks air instead of water, or maybe they could put an interior together which does not require complete disassembly to remove the radio and climate control system if there is an issue, or maybe they could figure out how to keep the cruze control working for more then a month after purchase, or maybe they could figure out why the A8 wears out the inside edge of the tires on the rear, even though the cars alignment is right on the money and in factory spec, or maybe they could figure out why the transmission mounts seem to fail only on the left side of the trans,, yea they are diffinatly the best out there...for problems.

Lets start with somthing simple on the A4 and A6..make checking the airfilter a simple job.. the nearly 1/2 hour affair is enough never to want to check the damn thing.

Yup Audi has got it all figured out..

 

Not happening. Confirmed by L management....

 

You must be a FORD guy! right?

 

LOL..not even close. I just call it like I see it. You don't even wanna get me started on Ford!! They are the reason I started to service imports!! (sorry Paul!!) Audi to me..is the Ford of imports.

 

http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/2006archive.html

Quote ""In the USA, Audi recorded a growth rate of 6.3 per cent in the first five months and increased sales to 32,416 vehicles. In May, Audi delivered 7,120 units to customers, an increase of 10,3 per cent""

Statistic seems to tell a different story. I suspect you might have got yourself a Lemon.

 

I don't want to bend this thread in the wrong direction, but since we are discussing Audi, I just don't get the magic some folks see in their cars. Granted MB has turned into a Chrysler for the most part, and except for the M3, most of the other BMWs are too big, too heavy and Bangelization, not to mention iDrive, has taken away from what was once a very pure driving experience in an otherwise nondescript (2002) car. (I happened to see both an early 2002 and a very nice 3.0CS the other day which reminded me of what these cars once were). But, the Audis to me are not very sexy looking- pretty prosaic- not that any of the sedans on the market these days look that great to my eye- and while it seems to get raves over interior and appointments, it looks awfully plastic to me. The smaller ones do absolutely nothing for me, and while they make an ubersedan, the previous version was more expensive than the old m5 and appealed even less. What am I missing here?

 

Audi is famous for their quattro not the FWD. technical speaking, even if they do, it will not be possible to use if for a car that is beyond 250bhp.

Do you know that Audi DTM cars are all RWD?

 

A publically held car company that tries to emulate porsche's success will do the same things that porsche did - get rid of projects that aren't profitable. NOT pour more R&D money into them!

 

Sure..because of the insentives to buy them. Free brake jobs under the warrenty period, free oil changes..the list goes on and on. Find out how many people still own them after the warrenty is over..I'll bet you would be very surprized.

As far as a lemon goes...no I don't own one..never would. But I do service cars for a living, and I have serviced a boat load of Audis, all of them have the same problems. The ones I stated are very common and well knowen.

VAG for their Toureg SUV had to specialy train technicians around the world to fix all the electrical issues in that truck. That thing was so riddled with electrical issues one of my customers left it on the side of the road after 3 weeks of ownership, called the dealer to pick it up and demaned a full refund..after a week of talking with VAG..he got it. They produce a fine LOOKING product..but they are not put otgether or engineered as well as they could be. Remeber alot of the VAG cars are built in mexico.

I hope they do not treat Lambo, or engineer the new Lambos as poorly as they do there normal production cars.

 

I've only been involved with this forum for about a year and I read post several times a day, 7 days a week and I can't remember any discussion about Audi, and only recall one negative Lamborghini post, In contrast I can't count the number of Lambo compliments I've read in the Ferrari section.....Charlie