Ferrari Odo Rollback fraud. | FerrariChat

Ferrari Odo Rollback fraud.

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Skindiver, Aug 15, 2006.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Skindiver

    Skindiver Karting

    Apr 22, 2004
    203
    JHB SA.
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Has anyone ever been / almost been scammed in this way in a deal for a Ferrari ?
    I'm sure that Ferrari's are not immune to the dreaded haircut.

    If you bought or nearly bought a rolled back car, how did you find out ? physical evidence, like scratches on the guages or documentary ie mismatching records etc ?

    I'm told that on cars with manual odometers its quite easy for scammers to spin back the numbers with a drill. On cars with 5 digit odo's you can easily spin it forward and "lap it" forward onto a lower reading. Is this so ? If this easy , I wonder how many cars have had this done to postpone the event of the 30 000 service just enough to make the car attractive to a buyer ?

    skin.
     
  2. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    99,172
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Interesting question......
     
  3. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    I would say alot have been but dont know it.
     
  4. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    I think more of the early cars were disconnected and driven as opposed to spun back.
     
  5. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,280
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    The biggest problem with pre 90's Ferraris is not so much a roll back but a sending unit disconnect or a sending unit that was left un-repaired for however long.

    I have been preaching for the past 5 years on this forum about this. My advice is TO NEVER BELIEVE THE MILAGE - EVER on these cars. Instead use simple common sense and a good PPI.

    The sending units break. The ALL will eventually break. Mine has twice that I know about, once with me and one time that was recorded in the repair orders that came with my car.

    Think I am the only one? Do a search here and see how many times it has happened to others here. Now, do you think it is ONLY me and the search result folks on this forum and NO ONE else?

    Also the sending unit can be disconnected in about 6 seconds if you are slow. I personally know of a small handfull of 308's out there that this has happened to. I know because I have personally seen them disconnected and have had owners tell me they did it. Now who here thinks that the ONLY ones out there like this are mine, the search result folks on this forum and the ones that I know about?

    Finally, how many people are the original owners of these cars? There are a few of you (very, very few). I only know of one original owner personally. For the rest of us, how could we possibly know about this part of our car's history? non working odometers are not something that is going to be bragged about by a seller.

    I do want to point out that none of these cars are going to have the couple hundred thousand miles of a business traveler's sedan. Of course not. More like the 50K to 80K range, maybe more maybe less.

    Just keep this in mind when you are looking at that 83 308 QV with "only" 27,000 miles and worn pedal rubber.
     
  6. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    16,210
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    I remember looking for my car 2 years ago. Every testarossa I looked at had 9000-15,000 miles. EVERY ONE. SOme of them clearly looked way over that!

    One red tesatrossa at LFSC was buffed through in 3-4 spots, paint riddled with scratches, drivers seat bolster worn through down to the foam aith large rips, brakes worn, rubbers on clutch pedal worn to metal...car had 13,000 miles... :(

    And, the car did sell...for good money. It looked like an 80,000 mile car.

    So few of us ever see a real "10,000 mile" car, so its hard to recognize an imposter. The disconnected odometers perpetuate the myth that ferrari's wear poorly, and disentergrate at 50,000 miles...

    But folks will continue to screw with odometers...
     
  7. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    16,210
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    I remember looking for my car 2 years ago. Every testarossa I looked at had 9000-15,000 miles. EVERY ONE. SOme of them clearly looked way over that!

    One red tesatrossa at LFSC was buffed through in 3-4 spots, paint riddled with scratches, drivers seat bolster worn through down to the foam aith large rips, brakes worn, rubbers on clutch pedal worn to metal...car had 13,000 miles... :(

    And, the car did sell...for good money. It looked like an 80,000 mile car.

    So few of us ever see a real "10,000 mile" car, so its hard to recognize an imposter. The disconnected odometers perpetuate the myth that ferrari's wear poorly, and disentergrate at 50,000 miles...

    But folks will continue to screw with odometers...
     
  8. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    If you personally know of Ferraris that have had their odometer disconnected you need to post those cars cars serial numebrs, colors and criminal-owners if possible. Hopefully that will help prevent a fellow FChatter from buying one of those cars...
     
  9. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,280
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    You have to be kidding. I appreciate your point but are you willing to defend me at you expense in court? I can't afford to nomatter how right I am.

    I'll do what I can do for people I know personally on the down-low but better to leave it in the buyer's beware column. I don't make enough money to pay myself to be the Ferrari police.
     
  10. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    Well thats 70% of MDs and Captains of industry then;)
     
  11. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    What are you worried about? The truth is an absolute defense to any libel or slander claim. Do you really "know" that the odometers have been disconnected or do you only suspect it?
     
  12. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    So be it...I want all such criminals to be caught and prosecuted regardless of their station in society...the bigger they are the harder they fall...
     
  13. BT

    BT F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 21, 2005
    15,291
    FL / GA
    Full Name:
    Bill Tracy
    I would look at the overall condition of the car from outside, inside, above, and below. I can say I was surprised how clean and new the underside of my 89 348 looked while it was on the lift for its (third) belt service recently with the odometer at around 24k miles.
    :)
    BT
     
  14. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I have found switches under the dashes of MANY Ferrari's that shut off the senders signal to the dash. Have a look for those..most are fairly well hidden, but anytime a car comes in for PPI, I dive under the dash, and look in all the little nooks and crannies for odd wiring and a funny switch thats not supposed to be there. I have found them on the late model stuff aswell.
     
  15. Bill2

    Bill2 Formula Junior

    Oct 4, 2004
    340
    GA
    As I'm trying to sell my 355 with 29,000 miles I get this from buyers all of the time: "I can buy a 355 with 9,000 miles for the same price." I don't say anything, but I know how easy it is to disconnect the speedo.

    Have you ever wondered why so many 355's have under 20,000 miles, yet the drivers seat is worn, the carpets are a mess, and the engine looks like it has 40,000 miles on it. Maybe it does.

    - Bill
     
  16. colo348

    colo348 Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    143
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Yeah, I had an experience with my TR to check out rolled back or tampering. I had all the records from day one from, I think, reputable Ferrari dealers that did the work. When I went through the records and talked to various groups that had been involved with my car everything checked-out.

    However, that said when I replaced the speed sensor (they do go out on occasion) I found out that I could roll back the mileage or a least stop anymore miles from being placed on the car. I was surprised how easy it would be. To safeguard myself I took pictures of the old and new speed sensors, speedo mileage image with date and had a short document certified and date stamped.

    I'm not exactly sure how you could tell a rollback, but records from the dealers and service people involved would help; a car showing 10K miles should be in good condition with not much wear; check out the speed sensor area by the oil filter for wrong part or tampering; excessive ware on a low mileage car; buying a car from a none Ferrari source (i.e. Sam's Exotic Cars) could be risky.
    Good luck,
    Jim
     
  17. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    60,019
    MidTN
    Full Name:
    DGS
    This is another reason to look for a complete service history. If it had a 30K service in '98 at 31050 miles and an alternator replaced in '03 with 15455 in the mileage space, "danger, will robinson".

    Carfax reports also mention mileage at events like registrations or emissions tests in some states. If the mileage steadily increases over time, that's what you'd expect.

    The "odo malfuction" issue is a thorny one. Some states will annotate the title with a warning if there had been *any* odo repairs at all. That doesn't necessarily mean that the odo is wrong.

    For example, I had to replace the odo cable on my Alfa twice. It sat at the shop waiting for the replacement the first time. But, of course, there's the two miles from where it broke to the shop that didn't get tallied. The second time, the cable broke about 100 miles into a 700 mile trip. It got repaired on arrival, but the odo missed about 600 miles.

    On a 27 year old car with over 60K miles on the clock, is 0.6K as significant as 60K of odo error?
    (Does your odo show a mile *exactly*? With your upgraded tires? Within 1%?)

    But looking at used Ferrari ads, I have to conclude that either a lot of odos are being turned back, or a lot of people are buying Ferraris and never driving them. Neither one seems particularly likely ...
     
  18. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    35,280
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I know it.

    But I cannot prove it. For example, Back in 98 or 99 I actually looked and saw one disconnected on a car that was being driven that day. How do I prove that? Another example is what a guy told me at a FCA National Meet (LA I believe). How do I prove that?
    Before I start typing names and chassis #'s (which I don't have anyway) don't you think it would be wise to be able to back it up?

    As an attorney you tell me.
     
  19. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    It's one thing to stop miles from being put onto an odometer, another thing entirely to pull miles off of an odometer now that autocheck and carfax show all buyers the mileage at emissions checks, purchases, and car tag renewal history.

    For instance, autocheck only showed me one 348 with an odometer rollback...caught because the criminal owner rolled the odometer back behind the number of miles that the car had the previous time it was purchased (state records).

    That's just stupid, as that odometer fraud is going to haunt every future owner of that car in its carfax/autocheck history. The fraud will alway be in the online history of the car.

    Instead, what is more common is that dishonest people disconnect the odometer sender and simply use a handheld GPS to tell them their speed as they drive.

    The mitigating factor in all of this, the real saving grace, is that the people who are disconnecting their odometers are the same people who are too cheap to perform routine maintenance, so they don't drive their Ferraris very much...and the condition of the car and of the car's maintenance logs give away that you don't want to pay a premium for the vehicles from such owners, anyway.

    In fact, the whole situation is actually a plus for Ferrari buyers/owners as it **FORCES** people to perform more due dilligence than simply reading a number on the dashboard (i.e. being lazy). Instead, Ferrari buyers have to check out the whole car first.
     
  20. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Not a Ferrari, but my 1988 Toyota 4Runner was rolled back twice in three years. First was in NM, and second was up here in MN. I caught it looking at carfax. First 100 K of its life in TX was uneventful. Sold in NM with 114K, and one year later was sold back in TX with 100K. Thats one year and 14K miles missing. How many can YOU put on in one year? Second time was two weeks before I bought it up here in MN. was sold at the Midwest auto auction with 158K miles, almost exactly one year after it was recorded in TX with 100K. Two weeks later I bought it with 98K miles. In 7 years I put on another 90K miles and it was one of the most trouble free vehicles I ever owned.

    When my Dad was young and into cars, he always says no one kept a new car more than two or three years, and no one ever bought a used car with anything over 30K miles. Yet even he admitted he could put 15K or more on a car per year, and more when he made trips back and forth from MN to CA twice a year. And on car lots in the 40's and 50's, you never seen cars with more than 29K. They ALL had 29K! If you want to see something funny, go look at older Motorhomes. I have walked through entire lots and seen none with over 50K miles.

    Older mechanical speedometers are incredibly simple. I have never "rolled" one, but I have in curiousity played with a few. Even a MB has the same basic simplicity and they all can be rolled around and made to read anything you choose. I assume the Ferrari is nothing different. And if there is enough financial incentive to roll back a 12 year old Toyota, or a 15 year old MB, you can bet your bottom $ that they will roll a Ferrari and never bat an eye.

    Now just assume a little math. This '49 Ford coupe my dad owned made 7 trips to CA and back in less than three years. No freeways, just old US highways. He also knew he couldnt sell anything if it went over 50K miles, no lot would give anything. I recall seeing old 49 Fords when I was a kid still running around just fine. They never had more than 50 or 60K miles. No cars did when I was young. I remember my brother bought a 56 Belair off a lot in Duluth in around 1974 for $40 and the car read 59K miles. Do you all really think that car only drove 59K in 20 years?

    How could anyone buy a brand new Ferrari and just never drive it. Oh sure, there are always a few, but come on. Most were driven and we all know it. I bet many were driven a lot, ran up to 5 or 10K or more, and traded off. Boy, the maintainence books are sure missing in all those 308's for sale. Kinda hard to sell that pristine 308 with "only" 29K miles when the services are all stamped off in the first year or two up to 30K miles, and all the repair invoices are missing too. Because the reality is that no one will buy a 308 or any other Ferrari once it accumulates a lot of miles. Not for any decent price that wont keep it from being parted out. Yet probably many of these "jems" with 29K miles may just as easily have 200K and no one is any the wiser.
     
  21. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Dude, that is IT in a nutshell. I have countless repair orders in my database with the same mileage year after year after year... <grin>

    Now, I haven't seen consciously disconnected or, heaven forbid, disconnected, speedo senders. Not in twenty-five years...

    Condition is MORE important than mileage, but no UNDOCUMENTED 308 mileage can be believed...

    Frank, I ain't going to court. They don't pay my bills...

    -Peter
     
  22. silvergts1998

    silvergts1998 Formula 3

    Apr 10, 2005
    2,419
    ky
    Full Name:
    Adam
    I know of a white 1992 512 Testarossa in Philly that has mileage issues at a certain dealership.....
     
  23. JSL

    JSL Formula 3

    Jan 5, 2002
    2,212
    California
    Full Name:
    J.S. Leonard
    My 355 has nearly 32000 miles on it. All are clearly legit. I would put my car up against any of those 9000-mile cars any time. I have complete history, and I mean complete. Valves done and documented, 3 majors done, along with all other services. The car is pristine without scratch, leather flaws or bolster wear. How is it that a 9000-mile car has all those things? I looked at a low miles car before buying mine a couple of years ago. The wear on the seats was very evident, carpet worn, door plates rusted, engine dirty, tires shot, no service records and no major done. The guy said the car was perfect with only 9000 original miles. Yea right! Some poor guy probably bought it thinking he did well. The worst part is that if I went to sell my car, I would probably take a bit of a hit for miles while some goofball disconnects his odo and sells for more. It isn't right. But, who cares, I'm not selling! :)
     
  24. testarob

    testarob F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2006
    2,504
    Debary, Florida
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Besides, even if you ARE right... and DO get sued anyway ... what a pain in the arse to have to defend ... Time is money
     
  25. Allen F

    Allen F Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2006
    282
    AZ / PNW / NYC
    Full Name:
    Allen
    I understand that newer Ferrari's with F1 transmission actually have a mileage counter in the computer. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correct, however, if your car (or one you may purchase) has an F1 tranny a mechanic with the proper computer can access the "actual" mileage regardless of what the odometer says.

    In fact, my local mechanic, Andy Falbo, did a PPI on an 360 with F1 only to determine an 8K mile discrepancy.

    I also, ran into a similar problem trying to purchase a 99 355 Fiorano Spyder from Bentley of Long Island (this past March). They claimed the car was a "euro" from Canada. Upon questioning, the salesman said the odo was in MPH no KM, and they had no record of the odo change. When I asked them to check the "actual" miles with a computer (due to the F1 tranny) they said sure, but never called back - or returned three additional phone call.

    Perhaps the F1 tranny will solve future odo fraud problems.
     

Share This Page