The continued Saga of the '87 Testarossa...

Thanks!!! You have no idea how tough it has been to find some hard compression data on this vintage Testarossa with a good test procedure. I did not keep track of high/low on each cylinder the way you did, but recorded the average of 2 cranks on each. We did the test the same as you - all plugs out, plenum open, good charger on battery, etc. We tried 2 guages with no real differences noted. So-

your cars: 29K = high 190, low 184 // exactly what I would have expected
42K = 177, 154 // lower and greater high/low, but OK

mine: 51K = 120, 90 // way-T.H. too low, and 33% variation.

Also, it is quite obvious that my 51K test is way,way below the curve if you assume a constant for compression loss between your 29K car and the 41K one. If my numbers were like your 42K car, I would already have a red car in the garage by now, cat converters to be replaced when possible.

However, for this car...I apply my "Corvair rules"...if these 51K numbers were on my old Corvair hotrod, it would be up in the air for rings and valves as we speak. The problem with the Ferrari, as other posters clearly state, is that this engine rebuild could easily go 75% of the car's worth, while probably not putting it's value more than mid-fifties.

Did I also mention that about 50cc of fresh oil came out of the #3 spark plug hole when he pulled off the boot on the plug wire?

I gave up the Santa Claus concept easier than this when I was a kid...

Thanks again, James

PS - post coming for that car person who hizacded my thread about ZR1/LT5!!!

 

You posted -

"I sold my ZR-1 to get my first TR and have no regrets."

This observation is as valuable to me as the compression numbers! Why do you think I am looking at an older TR which obviously needs work?

a. As Bullfighter cleverly revealed - "I am not exactly awash in cash".

b. I could not bear to let go of my 1995 #401 (black/black) with only 29,000 miles to get into a TR. Hence, look at older cars with more miles/problems...
an aside - They only made 448 ZR1s in 1995 and this may be one of the very last 3 or 4 in black/black. It also has the "Dunn" heads slated for the never-built 1996 475hp version.

Maybe I need to do a reality check here - I have had #401 for six years. I keep it under a car cover, drive only once a week. Just like I planned to do with the Ferrari. If I was only willing to let go of it, and to put all the expense this current '87 offers into the balance, would a 10K-12K miles 512TR be totally out of the question?

James - If I keep on whining and ranting like this, I suppose I should become a subscriber...thanks for everyone's interest.

 

I bought my 87 black/tan in Chicago from the original owner(used to be IL plates "No Class" now TX plates "SU U L8R" w/16,000 and all records 9 mos after the "Big Service" performed by the same mechanic you're talking too, pd 54k for it, love the car, got distracted. The guys out at Norwood are local and have a great rep, they changed the oil in mine, told me a lot about these cars and even futzed with a non working brake light and got it working for no extra $, they'll warn you about what not to do (no clutch sidesteps, this ain't a corvette) etc. call them.

 

I have seen this car at LFSC shop. Always thought that was a very cool plate. Basically same as what I paid for mine, also just after a big service. You can buy very nice cars in the low 50's...for now...

 

Just a suggestion, did you look on ebay recently? There appear to be some really nice low to mid mileage cars with servies done for under $60k. There is even an 85 for $50k which looks nice and claims to have all services done and even has a tubi. Aside frome the painted rockers and fron valence , I would say that car seems cheap, and that car has 38,000 miles. Certainly worth a look.

 

Thanks for bumping this thread back around, LucasLaw, JayF, and BPU699. I think I did post that the owner drove it for around 120 miles and had the leakdown redone on #11 and #12. It was still about 20%, but looked like it might have gone down by 1% or so.

I did call on an exhaust system that Joe told me about, but it was gone already. Actually, I am starting to look again with a more realistic viewpoint on price...this car was not worth within 10K of the asking once you know the problems.

By the way, I have been in contact with Norwood (James the owner was one of the first to welcome me onto this forum, BTW). They have been very helpful and told me many items to look for. I might very well have thought that the custom exhaust on that car would have been a simple bolt-on of the converter parts if he had not shown me a stock testa exhaust he had there in his shop...so many thanks to Norwood Performance.

I have an online dealer who is making some attempts to arrange a trade for my ZR1 on a lower mileage 1987 with recent service - but no deal yet.

James

 

The owner just called with good news/bad news.

He has driven another 125 or so miles, and claims the leakdown is now down to about 17% on the two weak cylinders.

However, while paying toll on the highway, he attempted to shift down into first, only to be greeted by an ugly crunch and an immobilized transmission. So, they have it at LFSC and are doing the transmission and differential, and while the engine is out will do belt service as well.

I asked about valves and rings, but do not have a clear answer yet. I think it depends on what Joe finds when they get it apart.

I told him I was sorry that happened, and I am. He seems to be a nice guy who has got himself into kind of a mess.

James

 

James, if the car has a bad leakdown...bad trans...bad diff... The car is a parts car. The owner should sell for 15,000$ and be done with it.

Major: 10,000$
Diff: 20,000$
Rebuild motor: 35,000$

Car worth, 55,000$ when all is done.
Current value of car: 0$.

Offer to buy the car for 15,000$ (Someone!!!), and fix the stuff yourself or part it out...

PS. Where s the car listed for sale?

 

It was missing from the current month's Hemmings, but he says it will go into next month's issue. He thinks he now wants 62,000 for it - i.e. when it is fixed.

I cannot imagine pulling that engine out and not doing the valves and rings, but I am afraid that this may very well be what happens. Preliminary word is a transmission rebuild as well as the fact that metal got into the diff. They are waiting for parts just now.

I take it that a certain female family member is quite put out by the premature eruption of this little hand grenade.

I think I may have dodged a pretty dangerous bullet here - but still feel sorry for the owner. He truly loved this car, and now he kind of feels let down by it.

 

Sounds like the owner has a parts car on his hands. Good things come to those that wait and its your lucky day for waiting so long- no broken down high mileage car in your driveway and a clear prospect for purchasing a great lower mileage car for the same or less money.

 

I totally sympathize with the owner, and we all fear this might happen to any of us....

I wonder how this was presented to the owner by LFSC? I sincerely doubt that the owner will have the motor rebuilt - its throwing out good money. Even after he fixes the trans/diff...this is not a 62,000$ car...

Someone should recommend he buy a used motor/trans (25,000$ or so, anyone?)...it would be cheaper.

 

You know what went through my selfish little mind when I first heard it?

What if that first gear had crunched out while I was driving it?

Yikes!

I am going to try to follow the story, just out of human interest. I kind of think that what BPU said is pretty much what Joe Puakner told him - it may not be worth trying to do a full rebuild on that motor; but in that case why is it worth a belt service?

James

 

hi james just did complete exhaust on my 89 testarossa.not cheap pre cats 3800 each after market not available hyper flo cats 1500 a pair and capristo mufflers around 12000 total if interested i have one left precat one converter and complete original mufflers forsale on ebay good luck

 

Never. I just had dinner last night with a guy that drives his every day, never had the heads off and it has 215,000 miles. It does not smoke and oil consumption is the same as mine with 12,000 miles.

The 4 valve motor series from 83-94 are the most durable motors Ferrari ever built.

 

James you have a PM

 

Brian, in light of this what do you postulate caused the increased wear an tear???

Racing? - testarossa's are rarely used for this

Running out/low of oil?

Frequent short runs while in storage?

Foreign material in motor?

Plugged oil galley?

 

Thanks for the message, but it is not appearing in my list...maybe because I am not subscribed...?

Will try to do that later today - then maybe you can resend.

I will not have any more news on the engine/transmission work until about September 5; the owner is taking a vacation and he tells me that Joe the mechanic has had some minor surgery.

James

PS - everybody I talk to agrees that this engine should go way further than 50,000 miles without valve/ring/bottom end trouble. I don't know if we will ever know what is happening on this one if they don't at least pull the heads.

 

E. It could be all of the above and you can add repeated overheating due to in-op cooling fans..

 

MGTR1990, or anybody else - If this deal should ever get put together, I will definately need all the exhaust system from the 3to1 headers back...including the precats, main cats, mufflers, and the rest.

Would it be possible to post me back a price for what you have?

Thanks, everybody...

PS - Yes, I know the concensus has been that this is a junk parts car, but as the owner is doing the overhaul at his own cost, I am looking at it again. Remember, this car is in really great shape cosmetically, and is a real one owner.

James

 

Boy the 3-into-1 headers may be tough to find. The rest of the exhaust system shouldn't be a big deal. Mufflers are cheap, the precats and cats can be pricey too. Keep your options open as to other systems...don't rule everything out just yet. What does the car have on it now? You can make aftermarket systems be emissions compliant.

 

Carguy, it has the original 3>>1 headers, but from that point back everything is custom. The four headers go to four little individual mufflers (kind of like an old glasspack), and there are no precats nor are there the two original main cats. I was hoping that the owner had just put test pipes in it, and that I could then just buy the main convertors, but it was obviously not the case when I actually saw the car.

At least, I don't think I will need to buy the 3to1 headers...

BTW, Joe Paukner says that while he has the engine apart he will make a decision as to whether it needs a top overhaul (i.e., he will find out why those two cylinders are low).

Still looking for exhaust system parts, thanks,

James

 

If those flat-silver/gray headers are under there than that's most of the battle won! From your description it sounds like it has a Borla system or a Watson Engineering system on it. I'll post a pic of my polished Borla system and you let me know if this is it. The Watson Engineering system was similar except that the mufflers were stainless glasspacks, and not the Borla mufflers.

A while back on ebay there was a fellow selling a custom exhaust system that was very cool. It consisted of a Y-Pipe joining each side of headers into one pipe, then a high flow cat convertor, and then out the back with twin tips. It was truly an awesome packaging job and I'd love to hear it. Apparently the cat convertors quieted the motor enough that no mufflers were needed, at least for that fellow.

There really are lots of possibilities so don't think you need the crappy factory system to be legal.
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That really does look like the system, but of course I am here in Dallas and the car is up in Chicago, so I can't say for sure. (Except of course that my candidate is not nearly that shiny!) What did you do about the sensors? The chicago 87 has them in just two of the four individual pipe - and I can see a couple of fittings on your inner two pipes that look the same.

I think that the main issue for me right now is the precats - if they could be found there at least 2 or 3 aftermarket options. So, maybe I should just concentrate on that.

Maybe I will go check with the Norwood guys here again, as long as the owner is fixing the engine and transmission. He is doing a belt service as well, so I am warming up to this car again - the big issue right now being the cat system.

BTW - do you think this setup really makes a little more power, or is it just for sound quality? My owner claims 20hp but he has no dyno sheets. I think I will save this system even if I can put together a legal cat converter installation.

Thanks - James

 

Yes the Borla system has bungs for the O2 sensors on the two inner pipes coming from the headers. I've never had any problems with this arrangment. The system is a lot less weight than the factory system so that is a plus. As for a power increase....I do believe their is some...and 10 to 20 hp is not out of line. I can feel the difference in the seat of the pants between the factory system and the Borla system. The sound is very nice and distinctive. The car is fine when cruising with no intrusive rumble or resonance in the cabin. But at wide open throttle you can REALLY hear it! I've had nothing but positive comments about the sound of my car with the Borla.