It's broken AGAIN!!!!!!

NO...you are right with Kject or CIS as it is called.

Motronic uses a start-up program to effect the 8 injectors tied into the coolant temp sensor to calculate required fuel vs MAF air volume.

 

I like this one best LOL!!!

 

Not only must the battery be grounded to the frame, BUT ALSO to the engine. Most of the injections system is grounded to the engine, but the engine is isolated from the frame by rubber mounts, hoses, etc. Do that and it will start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You seem to have automatically eliminated the RPM sensors as the cause. The way I read the manual, if the RPM sensors don't tell the Motronic ECU's that the engine is cranking over at at least 30rpm, the Motronics won't go into "cold start" mode and open all of the injectors (this should last between 60 and 640rpm, depending to some extent on the other signals).

If you spray starter fluid into the engine, then it doesn't matter whether the injectors are open or not, as long as you have spark it will start. Then the engine revs over 640rpm and it goes into the normal running cycle, with sequential opening of the injectors.

You did say that you are getting a trouble code to indicate bad rpm sensors, right?

Edit: What I'm saying is, that the engine won't start because the injectors aren't opening. Because of the RPM sensors?

 

yes you are absolutely correct but you are guessing not diagnosing. That is one way to do it. I have the extra parts and you can part replace until you get lucky but even a new part will not work if the wire to it is bad. 30rpms by the way is not an issue since the start if it runs at all makes that low threshold of 30rpms. The only sensor you need to start the car is TDC. The other's are important but it will start without say a cam sensor.

The algorithim is like start= S1 + S2 + S3 etc... with decreasing importance to later terms.

 

Hi,

most starterfluids you can buy here in germany ignites without spark, only by compression, it should be similar at your place.

It looks like your problem is related to a bad elektrical (ground ?) connection that even works as long as the engine is running. During cranking which causes the battery voltage going lower it fails to deliver enough current for a strong spark .

Good luck & regards, Georg

 

Sometimes simple things are the hardest to find.....

 

Ding, ding, ding, ding, winner, winner!

Well boys, I got the damn thing running today. Was it the battery, noooo, was it the injectors, noooo, was it the crank sensor, noooooo, was it the ignition, nooooo, was is the bad wire going to the hot lead for the starter, noooo, what was it?

Drum roll.................

It was the stupid ground! Plugz calls me up and tells me that he is SURE it is the ground. JJ guessed it, and I was planning on putting on the extra strap anyway. Well that was exactly what it was. I put on a 4 gage ground strap from the frame to the oil pump side of the transmission case. I also put on a new connector for the hot lead to the starter. I reconnect my tiny race battery , put the key in the ignition and, VROOM, it starts right up on the first shot. I shut it off and started it again two more time without a hitch.

So make sure that your grounds are properly attached kids.

The "guess how many peaponds in the jar" award goes out to Plugzit and jjstecher.

But all is not peachy in the land of Ferrari ownership. It is running now but, as I have said, if it isn't one thing with this stupid car it is another. While I was on a shake down run it was giving me CELs. I pulled them and one was for the O2 sensor, that I think is another bad ground issue, and the other for the crank sensor, which I think may be the same bad wire I tackled a year ago. So I have a little more stuff to fix, but nothing big deal.

Thanks to ALL that gave me help, and offered to lend me help.

You gotta love the Brotherhood.

Thanks guys.

 

Phew!!! Good one! You owe Plugzit a beer or two. Thats why we all love the 348 brotherhood mate! Everyone raise your fists and chant with me!

BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!
BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!
BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!BROTHERHOOD!!

 

Oh he knows I have cold Bavarian Hefeweizen waiting for him in the frigg.

 

You spoil him too much mate!!

 

Prost!

glad to see you don't need expansive parts.

cinque

 

yes possible but then would not stay running as you need electronics to open fuel injectors to keep running

 

Ernie,

You are funny. Plugzit told you to check grounds the day before we even came up to see you. Maybe nextime you have a problem the brotherhood should ask if Ernie has any gas in the tank! Then the can change all the parts and say no....that's not the problem I had no gas in my tank. Oh...I think it getting dark as Ernie is choking me out!!!!

 

OK, cool. Ernie's running again. Now maybe he'll let me try out his rebuilt tranny. I'd like to compare it to mine running with the Redline fluid.

I do like that ernie is willing to publicize his foibles and then take his public 348 Brotherhood ribbing (n good humor) as he eventually solves all of his issues and then that will help all current/future 348 owners because it leaves an online trail.

NOTE TO SELF: 348 cold-starting/warm-starting problem may be lack of a large-enough ground from battery to frame/engine/tranny!

 

LOL. My 17 year old son says the car is like an addiction.

ME (after the 6th trip for service in a year):
"Ok, I just got the Mondial back and it is really running fine now"

SON: "Dad, you are like a drug addict: 'Yeah this is the last fix, for sure'"

 

How could there be a good enough ground to start and run the car one day, and not the next day?

How could there be a good enough ground to operate the starter (heavy load) and not enough ground to operate the electronics (light load)?

I'm not convinced, but I'm happy the car is running now. One of the first things I did when I got my 348 was to replace the battery, and run an additional ground strap from the frame bolt to the transmission case.
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Grounds are funny. The car will seek a ground if there is not one readily available. Examples are through the shifter cables, exhaust system-to-frame mounting, etc. Look at your engine bay and think of the places there is some type of metal-to-metal contact between the motor and frame. Not many, and those that are, are undependable. So, without a ground from the motor to the frame, everything that is grounded to the motor has a bad ground as there is no dependable connection from the motor to the battery ground, thus no complete circuit. That said, I've seen cars run fine with a ground through the shifter for a long time, then just crap out. The usual result is the owner or mechanic looking for all kinds of electronics problems-because there will be myriad problems indicated-and forgetting the basics. Most cars have the battery grounded directly to the motor and a ground strap in another location from the motor to the chassis, so in just looking at the ground from the battery and seeing it bolted to the frame, you might ASSUME that the ground is fine.

 

Glad your back running Ernie and for the cost of just feeding FBB and crew for losing your bet.

Grounds are a pain in the ass as I have had them screw with me multiple times over the years and the real pain is that its always the last thing you check because I guess its human nature to think the worst and investigate there first. Always remember Occam's Razor brothers.

Off to rejet my carbs and prep my new body for paint. Happy motor Ernie!

 

Actually, he got off really cheap because No Doubt feed me and the crew. He is my new best friend. Thanks ND.

 

Yeah I didn't loose the bet, No Doubt did. I did grab the bill first though, and No Doubt was gentleman to pay up on the bet. Lucky for me cause FBB packed away a good amount of food.

 

Oh okay smart ass, then how come NO ONE thought to check it when everyone was over.

Check to make sure I have gas in the tank. Funny guy, real funny guy. LOL! You gotta love it when the Stooges are together. We made ND the four Stooge, Shemp. Hahahahaha!

 

Hello Ernie
Just wanted to say that I followed this post with a lot of interest and I am glad you die-hards sorted it out.
Normally you are the one who has a solution for the normal failures, but Miltonian and No Doubt have helped me out also several times.

I hope your "faith" in our beloved 348 comes back a bit

I have my car for 1,5 year now and done 5000 miles without any special issues. Just one thing bothers me a lot... my AC doesn't work
The assembly has been tested 2 times by the dealer and it just doesn't do it's work anymore. A new is not available at the moment. They are on "back order". I think Ricambi has a few for sale, but they are in F instead of Celcius and $$$$.. I will find one on Ebay sooner or later.. I hope.

Good luck.

 

Oh great. Come out to Cali and lose a bet, buy dinner, and then get stuck being called Shemp all night. Then I got to lay upside down in the bottom of a boat, pulling, rebuilding, and reinstalling a fresh water pump, a salt water pump, a new fuel pump, an automatic fire extinguisher, a heat exchanger, and some new fuel lines...except, the new fuel lines STILL AREN'T HERE!

ARRRRGH. Well, at least my friends dont abuse me...er, I mean, ummm...

Oh, did I mention that I got to clean out a raw seawater bilge pump filter (ewwww...), too?!

 

Well I'm not above asking for help. Sometimes you are so close to the problem that you can't see it, and others, that aren't as connected, can see the obvious because they aren't looking so close.

As for your A/C problem, have you pulled the climate control ecu yet and done the clean and reconnect with Stablant thing to it yet? If not you may want to give that a shot. If the compressor is the problem you can get those rebuilt.