Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Engine break in was completed on the 3.5 LITER on the dyno last week, we set up a basic running map, WITHOUT any tuning we are already producing more torque than a 355. The torque curve is very flat, peak torque is at 5900 rpm, peak HP is at 7400 rpm.

We dissassembled the engine after we ran it the first time & re assembled the engine & ran it on the dyno again.

The engine is now back in the car, should be running by tomorrow afternoon, heading out with our car hauler & the 3.5 liter car to Monterey tomorrow night for the show on Friday.

I will be starting a new thread with some pics etc. I will try to keep updating as time goes.

Looks like the next one will be supercharged with NOS.
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Engine break in was completed on the 3.5 LITER on the dyno last week, we set up a basic running map, WITHOUT any tuning we are already producing more torque than a 355. The torque curve is very flat, peak torque is at 5900 rpm, peak HP is at 7400 rpm.

We dissassembled the engine after we ran it the first time & re assembled the engine & ran it on the dyno again.

The engine is now back in the car, should be running by tomorrow afternoon, heading out with our car hauler & the 3.5 liter car to Monterey tomorrow night for the show on Friday.

I will be starting a new thread with some pics etc. I will try to keep updating as time goes.

Looks like the next one will be supercharged with NOS.

 

SUWEETNESS!

Thanks for the update Nick. The individual throttle bodies are kickass! So what did it put down on the dyno?

 

Wow, Are those casings & manifolds powder coated or anodized

 

Congratulations Nick!

It looks beautiful. Maybe after the show (when you’ve had time to sleep again) you can recap all the cool stuff you did to it. As I recall it’s a lot more than the big bore and EFI….and to make high 300s for hp, it sounds like you spent a good deal of time getting the heads to flow? Custom cam I’m guessing? I’d love to hear any details when you get time to post them. It’s a great project.

 

Congrats on a great project! - looking forward to more details!
More Torque = Happy driver!
Excellent work!

 

WOW! hey...look out for a huge run (run up) on 2v 308's with burnt/blown engines as a host car

 

Nick,
LOOKS GREAT, 1st thing I noticed were smg2's new cam gears...

Can't wait to see the dyno curves on the 3.5 & 4.0 engines.

 

Thought I would post a few more photos for Nick. Also my R&D intake flow sheet for the 2V heads.

We ran the engine on Tate's dyno at Carobu because 1) they are set up to dyno the Ferrari engines and 2) we wanted to be able to compare our results with their dyno tests of both stock and modified 308 engines. You can check out their results at www.carobu.com. I will let Nick post our results at a later date, after more tuning on a chassis dyno.

Nick's engine with very little tuning, stock headers, full car exhaust emptying into the dyno room, actually made more power than I anticipated. Torque curve is very flat from 4,500 to 6,500 rpm, never dropping below 260 ft./lbs.

If you look at my flow sheet, peak intake flow was 177 cfm on my test head. The heads on the Nick's engine were ported by Nick's porting shop to duplicate my test head. Note that predicted power output is roughly 360 hp for a racing cammed engine, high compression, etc. with that amount of flow. I believe with a good set of dyno headers and more tuning, we would have exceeded that figure. Came damn close with the full exhaust system and very little tuning.

It is apparent that we have reached the flow limit for the 2V heads. Mark's 4 liter will require 4V heads. I have one 4V head here but no time as yet to do any testing with it. Unfortunately, this head has been reworked by someone prior to Nick getting a hold of it. I would like to start with a non reworked head.

Some specs on Nick's engine:

89 mm bore using custom ductile iron sleeves machined from Darton blanks
stock 71 mm stroke Ferrari crank
11 : 1 compression custom pistons
custom high lift cams ground to my specs
shim under heads, special springs, titanium retainers
Scott's adjustable pulley set up
Electromotive ignition, injection with TWM throttle bodies mounted on lexan spacers
custom vibration dampner
Nick's high flow coolant pump

I don't want to go into any more detail. I will leave that to Nick.

Car, engine can be seen at Concorso Italiano on Friday. I will be there to give Nick a hand and answer questions about the build.

Steve

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What are you guys doing for an air cleaner and cool air ducting for street use? The stacks look like they may not fit under a stock bonnet.

Wonderful head flows! Would be very interested on Steve's expectations of a ported 4v head and what the target numbers should be.

Great work.

 

Thank you for posting Steve. I see the flow still going up at .500 lift, were you able to lift the valves enough to take advantage of that? Really nice job.

Now, if my math is right, that head/cam set-up should feed a 3.0 to about 8500-8600 and make about the same hp as the 3.5 at 7400. Will the valves behave at 8600?

I guess the question that goes to Nick:
Nick, are you going to be offering the head/cam package for the 2V guys that don't want to go all the way to the 3.5 or 4.0 set-up? I've been trying to convince everyone that the heads are the main problem with the 308/328 engines making hp, but to date I haen't had much luck.

 

Mark,

The intake lobe lift on Nick's engine is .445". Probably worth about ten horsepower to take it to .500" lift. I could not find any masters with the duration I was looking for at .500" lift. Reliablity would most likely be a problem anyway at .500" lift with the relatively short duration lobe profile. You don't want to get the cam nose too sharp. It won't last very long.

The valve train should not be a problem at 8,600 rpm. Years ago I ran the Fiat X 1/9 engine with identical valve train to 11,000 rpm with 12 mm valve lift and no failures. We even ran the stock shim style lifters in the X 1/9. Nick's however uses the shim under design to save weight. Keep in mind that frictional losses will be much greater as the revs go up. So power will not be proportional to rpm vs. displacement.

Both torque and power output are dependent on raising the compression ratio. I went with 11:1 on Nick's engine which I consider to be a safe limit for pump gas. Stock 308 has a bit less than 8:1. So there really isn't any way around just bolting on a pair of heads without getting into the bottom end to at least change out the pistons.

Steve

 

Yes, of course compression is a good thing, and the more duration in the cam, the more important good compression is.

My point was 2 fold. First is that the thought of boring the heck out of the engine is a bit scary to many people, much scarier then installing custom pistons and ported heads. I believe an engine package that is basically a bolt-on would have much greater appeal in general. I've done a couple supercharger set-up on my car and have gotten many many requests to do it as a kit...but if it's not a straight bolt-on, the interest drops by 90%-95%.

You make a good point that hp will not be as high on the 8600 3liter vs 7400 3.5 liter, due to the increased friction...I guess I was over simplifying. Where I was going was to the air flow requirements will be the same. The head/cam package off the 3.5l should yeild a 3l that makes peak hp at about 8600, although the peak number will probably be a bit less than the 3.5l

My math on a QV says that with properly ported heads it should be making 335-345 with stock cams (it may be the higher lift 328 intake cam) and the stock low compression. My heads are off (and have been for months), I just haven't had time to get to them yet. With the blower I was making 420-440rwhp before the heads cam off, I'm thinking 600 is a good number for when they go back on at the same boost.

A very wise man once told me "I don't care if you're jesus christ himself, without air you are not going to make hp".....but the 3.5l project is the first ferrari I've ever seen with nicely ported heads. For some reasn the news that air flow matters just hasn't made it to the ferrari world.

I've mentioned this a few times but the point seems not to be picked up. I have a 750cc harley XR750 engine that makes 95rwhp, so maybe 110 at the crank and it was build over 10 years ago. It will run on pump gas and has nearly the identical bore, stroke, valve size or a 2v 308. That tells me that a naturally aspirated 3l v8 is capable of 440hp. Now it is a bit on the edge for the street (12:1CR, .570 lift cams with 270 [email protected], and a 9200 rpm redline), but 195-240 is pretty sad for a 3l, 350-400 seems like were a good street engines should be.....the reason they don't make those number is the stock heads are just awful.

 

Hey! I've listened and have been over here waiting for qv head porting numbers!

 

I was at Monterey which gave me a chance to talk to people who came around Nick's booth. I'd say most had no problem with block machining to increase the bore. Nick will be marketing a supercharger kit shortly for those looking to go the bolt on route. We will build a 3.5 liter supercharged engine for testing as time permits.

I will post numbers on the 4V heads after I get a chance to play with them. Nick will be sending me a complete QV engine to develop in the coming months.

I believe your estimate of 440 hp is within reason for a 4V street engine, whether 3.5 or 4 liter. You would have to turn the 3 liter pretty tight (for a street engine) to see that. You need roughly 220 cfm air flow through the intake runners. I don't think that will be a problem. I can get the 1600 - 1800 Honda 4V head to flow 300 cfm with slightly larger valves and a lot of porting.

Steve

 

I would like to respond to the last few posts as follows:

Steve’s work on the 3.5 liter engine demonstrates the challenges that Ferrari faces when trying to take race technology to the mass market. The 308 engine is very similar to the Cosworth DFV engine. In fact, if you put a 4 valve head on a 308 you would have a dead ringer for the Cosworth. I found it interesting to learn that the DFV eventually had displacement up to 3.9 liters.

The engine that the 308 engine is patterned after is arguably the most successful race engine every developed. It is part of the heritage that is in every 308.

The quality of the 308 and its ultimate suitability for supercharging lies in Ferrari’s attempt to produce a race engine by mass production methods. I would ask how many flat crank V8 engines were mass produced in the mid 1970’s? How many have been since? How many automobile manufactures were using wet sleeves. It is important to try to determine where Fiat started and Ferrari left off in this whole process.

Please remember that Steve is a race engine builder. The name of his company is Race Engine Development. This is the standard that he holds himself to when he builds engines. It has been discovered that his standards are far different from those which were used to assemble the 308 at the factory.

The bottom line is that Steve has been faithful to the original race design. Everything has been hand fitted. Tolerances are far tighter because of his attention to detail. Let me give you an example. Steve is able to run .0015 clearances in the main bearing because the block is line honed with the deck plates torqued in place. Without torquing the block, you can’t get an accurate crank bore. Stuff moves in this engine. It takes more time, but it is the right way to do the job.

The same principle applies to the cylinder bores. Steve’s methodology has resulted in cylinder bores that are straight and round to .0005 of an inch when the heads are torqued. The stock engine isn’t even close to that. The result is optimum ring seal, reduced wear and friction, and far greater oil control. When you add a multi layer steel gasket to the mix you end up with a platform that is ideal for supercharging.

Steve has been very diplomatic in addressing the supercharging of the 308. There are some that think that supercharging the 308 stock shortblock is a grenade waiting to happen. The lack of oil control in the combustion chambers and marginal cooling capacity, and the absence of a quench area makes detonation difficult to manage. The lack of space for an intercooler only compounds the problem. In addition, the CIS injection, if used, doesn’t provide the control and flexibility to dial in the fuel and ignition timing.

On the other hand, the 3.5 or 4.1 liter engines are more than suitable for supercharging. All of those concerns and others have been addressed. You have the foundation to build reliable power.

I know that there are some that have trouble cutting up the stock block to receive Steve’s sleeves. I can’t help you there except to say that you will end up something vastly superior and undetectable when the engine is assembled.

Some are worried about the cost. Some question if it is worth in. I would contend that it is a reasonable upgrade if you need to rebuild your engine, and a wonderful luxury if you have the cash.

Congratulations to Steve for a job well done. Congratulations for dispelling a 25 year old myth that a large displacement 308 is not possible.

Regards,
Mark Lewis

 

I would rather have a 308 and modify the motor with Nick than to buy a Testarossa again with the big maintenance bills.

 

The 3.5-liter looks like it can be pushed up to a 3.93-liter with a crank that I can source from Italy on a regular basis without having to wait 3-6 months at a reasonable cost. In reality the next engine I will work with Steve on will have the new crank, we will be fitting that engine into my 288 GTO style car which we will show next year at Monterey.

I am also working on a more streetable clutch at this time that will cost less than what I currently offer. My goal is to create a package that will be much less in cost than the 4.1 liter that originally started this thread.

I will probably start a new thread on this next chapter of development with Steve so I can put this thread to bed. We have focused on torque & to build a reliable street engine, not a race engine, time will tell as I put the miles on the engine with respect to the reliability factor. I feel very good about everything that we have all done in this first engine.

I will post some more info when I get back as I am currently taking a few days off before returning to Washington. FORZA FERRARI! Ciao.

 

Yep.

Hmmm ... you guys must be colour blind.

What's with all the 'colours'?

Pete

 

That's pretty cool. Would that crank fit in a stock 3.2 or 3.0 and increase the displacement with the correct pistons? Jus' thinkin'...
Congrats on the engine!

 

The crank should work fine with the stock bore. We don't yet know if it is a direct drop in. The flywheel end has a different bolt pattern so the stock 308 unit will not work. You would need a better flywheel, clutch anyway so that is no big deal.

I would highly recommend a connecting rod upgrade along with the crank. Nick is looking into sourcing some reasonably priced titanium rods to go with this crank.

Steve

 

Many thanks for the reply.
So it seems that one upgrade kit might be higher compression pistons, rods, longer stroke crank, and flywheel clutch. This would give increased compression, lighter, stronger, rotating mass and a (slight..200-300 cc?) increase in displacement. It would be simpler than a bore replacement and should increase torque as well as a bit on top - and quite straightforward to do at rebuild.
I'll volunteer to do the first one on a 3.2.
best
russ

 

You would end up with 3.2 liter with the crank in question.

The larger bore blocks provide for much improved performance and a lot stronger assembly. You would have the engine apart anyway.

Performance gain comes not only from increased displacement. The larger bore provides for a nice quench ring between the piston and head. This helps increase turbulence for better combustion. The larger displacement allows a nearly flat piston with 11:1 compression ratio. No dome, better quench means faster and more efficient burn. Valve reliefs are much further away from the ring area of the pistons with the larger bore size. This makes the piston stronger and less prone to detonation related damage. This becomes even more important with blower and or nitrous.

Large bore sleeves are honed in the block with a torque plate. Cylinders are therefore much rounder in service. Large bore sleeves are made in such a way that the blocks can be machined flat with sleeves in place. This allows use of modern MLS gaskets. MLS gaskets keep the heads flatter when torqued down thus keeping the valve seats rounder for better sealing.

A lot of thought went into the rework of the Ferrari block, engines. Nothing was done in hap hazard manner. I have no desire to ruin any one's block or engine.

I think Mark Lewis is ready to get going on the 4 liter project early next year. I'm very interested to see what we get for power out of his engine.

Steve

 

Hi Nick.

Any updates on this project? I'm just curious how the final dyno numbers turned out.

Thanks

 

tillman!
i'm pretty sure the 3.5 dyno is on the carobu site (carobu.com) in the v8 section. it's the only 3.5 l v8 there and it's got those funky colors --and the photo is labelled "nick's"