Undeserving :)
Well,these cars are supposed to be driven,hard,and that's what Europeans do.(Unlike majority of Ferrari owners in US)
Yes a lot of Americans buy a Ferrari as a pure conversation piece.Not the right thing to do but it happens You are also lucky enough to have the right kind of highways and higher speed limits. So there is more motivation to take the Ferrari out.
Sorry I'm wrong about that.But there is an disparity on supply of Ferrari's not that the average buyer wants to drive the prices up.
It is completely false to make the assertion that Europeans drive their cars harder. They do drive them more miles though. The German autobahn's unrestricted speed is only for rural/safe areas, otherwise there's a speed limit posted and enforced. However, speed limits ARE set more appropriately (ie higher) in Europe as a general rule. Having lived in the US and the UK, I can talk about the differences with a great deal of experience. In 25 years in the UK it was exceptionally rare to meet anyone that tracked their car. In London, where most Ferraris live, I'd see them at the expensive hotels, the exclusive golf clubs, outside Harrod's or driving on the road at the normal average London achievable speed of 10mph. Driving in the UK, and a lot of Europe is a completely frustrating experience -- there are speed cameras everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE. In the UK virtually everyone has some "points" on their licence for minor transgressions captured by the menace of the revenue-generators. It's possible to get a ban on driving with just a few speeding tickets. There is no discussion, argument or pleading with these machines, just an automatic ticket and revenue for the government. They hide them, they disguise them and there's mobile units just in case you get complacent. In the UK (and the US to a lesser extent), owning a Ferrari is first-and-foremost a mobile status symbol, and is used primarly for display. In the US, I've met dozens and dozens of people who take their cars out to the track and thrash them hard. The last Ferrari day at the track there were about 40 f-cars, of varying driver-experience levels. Porsche clubs, BMW clubs, viper clubs, corvette clubs, NSX clubs, Alfa clubs all hire the local tracks and get together and drive hard. It's not just the exotic or luxury cars though -- people will track what they can afford. I've seen all manner and measure of cars from race-prepped Miatas to volvo station wagons being enjoyed on the track. Here, in Washington state, there are no speed cameras (for now), and while the cops do take dim view of speeding, it is possible to enjoy some spirited driving on some AMAZING roads. Armed with a good laser-shifter/radar detector, you don't have to worry too much about speed traps. If you get nabbed, you can hire a good attorney who will likely be able to get the ticket thrown out. (I personally choose to follow the speed limits, and save the speed for the track). Anyway, in short, the stereotypical view of Dietrich blasting through Germany and Italy at 130mph with complete impunity is far from the truth .... and, given the choice between owning a Ferrari in the US and Europe, I know which I'd prefer....
BritBlaster....I can't let your post go without comment. Having lived in the UK myself, I find it inexplicable how you can say that they don't track their Ferrari's. The UK Ferrari owners club has numerous 'ferrari only' track days, and believe me, they are tracked...hard! Furthermore, most Brit's who have sports cars take several European road trips annually, and they all head for the fast roads in France, Germany and Italy. I was in Italy 6 weeks ago, driving at about 120mph, when I was passed by a 575 doing at least 150... Needless to say, try that in the USA and you will be meeting the usual kind and understanding Highway Patrolman... The other pet-peeve I have is how the average US driver is CLUELESS on lane edicate. In Europe, people move out of the way of faster traffic. They all understand that the left lane is for the fast movers, and people check the lanes before changing. In the states, if you move up on someone in the left lane and flash your lights to pass, they will more than likely: a) slam on their brakes, b) slow down, c) deliberately stay planted in the lane and refuse to let you by. Basically, the car owning experience is much fuller in Europe, made possible by the availablity of great roads, sensible speed limits, practical police, and generally well trained drivers. I know where I would rather own and drive a Ferrari... ps. totally agree with your comments on the ridiculous proliferation of speed cameras in the UK....criminalising the entire country one ticket at a time...
Agree completely on the lane-discipline issue ... but we weren't really discussing driver competence... I don't doubt that the FOC get together in the UK and track their cars. My point was, here in the US I've met lots and lots of people in daily life that have taken their cars to the track, and that in 25 years of living in the UK I haven't met anyone that has. Oh, I do remember one guy that used to enjoy rallying ... he scared me to death in his Talbot Sunbeam Lotus.... Your experience is wholly contradictory to mine as far as the UK is concerned. I have friends and family all over England, with a number owning sports cars, and it is exceptionallly rare for a sports-car owner in the UK to take *one* trip to the continent in a sports-car, let alone several. Since gas/petrol is $8/gallon, and you can fly round-trip to many European cities for $30-50 it's completely understandable. Any one that has driven in France and suffered the misery of the peripherique, or the horrible French drivers in general, understands the value of flying. I think you are possibly mixing with a very privileged crowd that is hardly representative of the UK as a whole, or even the typical sports-car owner in the UK. You know where you'd like to own/drive a Ferrari, fine .... I know too, and it's right here
You know where you'd like to own/drive a Ferrari, fine .... I know too, and it's right here [/QUOTE] I'll second that.
...well, my Merc SL55 owning friend is on his 3rd trip of the year to southern France, with two days at the Nurburgring on the way back. He is with a group of 28 cars...all from London. Nearly every enthusiasts car club in the UK (basically, every make of car has one) has several track days per year for it's owners. I match your 25 years in the UK...and I think a quick read of CAR or EVO magazines will anecdotally suggest that the Brits (and Europeans) like to get the most out of their cars. The aftermarket tuning business will also suggest that many owners like to modify and track their cars. There is a reason why Europe produces the best in aftermarket tuners such as Brabus and Ruff. Whenever I drive over in the States, I am constantly fearful of being pulled over for going a few mph over the posted speed limits. Driving from Phoenix to LA, straight for hundreds of miles, little traffic, and police will pull you over if you get much beyond 85. In Europe, early in the morning, little traffic, you can hit 150+ and not have to 'worry' about a blue and red flashing lights in your rear view mirror. If you enjoy high performance automobiles, only Europe allows you to experience that to its fullest on a day to day basis. I have a friend who lives in Monaco. Once or twice a week, he launches off to St Tropez, or the other direction into Italy. Either his Enzo or his Murcielago.....and he gets an adrenalin rush that few here can do without fearing jail time....!
Your right about being fearful when speeding in unknown areas. Whereas people living here have a good familiarity of the Highways and know exactly what times and where the Police lurk. So we plan our trips better than most.
If the dealer won't go along with your plan, you can still go through with your deal and the most you are out is the sales tax before selling to your buyer. No big deal, it happens all the time. The premium collected is way more than the sting of the tax.
OK, I give in. I understand now -- Brits and Europeans "real drivers", Americans all clueless dolts driving 25mph with the left blinker flashing for 10 miles. F599 ugliest car ever. Ferrari bad, lambo good. Did I miss anything ? Where *would* we be without you Casino Square ? (Besides better informed ?)
....I find with tedious regularity that the loser of an arguement usually reverts to sarcasm....eh BritBlaster?
Wasn't this thread about 599's selling over msrp? How did it turn into: 1. Americans can't drive 2. Americans are posers 3. Americans don't drive their Ferraris (which they don't deserve anyway, see #2) 4. Etc.etc... You guys left out one thing about American drivers: I am typing this on my Blackberry, while driving in the left lane (doing 55MPH) on I-85 south outside of Charlotte, in my C6 convertible (which looks JUST like a 599. God, I'm such a poser) On topic, I think 599's will break the modern 12 cylinder mold and sell for V8 type markups during the production run. I, of course, have no good reason for this opinion, it's just a gut feeling. P.S. Just kidding about the Blackberry. Jimmy
It is impossible to discuss anything productively with a bigot -- I used wit to respectfully bow out; your last missive was so divergent with actual facts that to address them would in some small way grant them with a dignity wholly undeserved. I assume that you get tedious amounts of sarcasm, not because you "win", but rather others have chosen the same path that I have when fronted with sophistic disingenuous arguments (might want to note the correct spelling here -- oops that's more sarcasm, I lose again).
hmmm, I do believe that my post about the 'friend' in the UK who was on a driving trip through Europe was informative and factual. I also believe that my comments on the ability to fully enjoy exotic automobiles in Europe was also based on fairly compelling evidence (no more proof of this needed other than to observe that I spend most of my time in the US looking in my rearview mirror, where in Europe I spend most of my time concentrating on the road ahead). If you choose to take offence at that opinion...well, I imagine you probably take offence at many things judging by your rather vitriolic reply (I usually reserve words such as as 'bigot' for people truly deserving, otherwise you just devalue the word itself, such as referring to Bush as Hitler...and other such misuses). Regardless, the bottom line is that your opinion has no more value than mine, other than at a personal level. Beyond the discussion of cars and preferable driving enviornments, I find the most interesting thing about forums such as these is how people tend to unwittingly reveal much about themselves as people. You have certainly done that..... Funny, all it took was a humorous jab at you 'losing' the argument (thank you for helping with the spelling, can't imagine WHAT I was thinking?) and your rather thin skin tore..., shame really. ps. rather curious about your title on this forum....perhaps implying you had a bit of trouble dealing with the Brits during your past....?
I am a British American, and I like shotgun sports, hence the handle. My comment about you being a bigot, is in reference to your diatribe in other threads as well as this one. My observation is that you tend to argue without respecting others' opinions, often misrepresenting subjectivity as fact. The shame here, is that for a moment you brought me down to your level. And to the others reading this thread, I apologize. You might want to make "humorous jabs" actually funny. There's less chance of them being taken for mean-spirited attacks that way.
...well, reviewing the chronology of posts that led to this rather impressive display of misconstrued intentions, it seems that you took the 'first shot' (no pun intended...!) with your closing comment in post #114 quote < "where 'would' we be without you Casino Square ? (perhaps better informed) > end quote. Again, I will state for the record, all I was attempting to do was 'disagree' with you regarding your comments on UK drivers. If you have a different experience, so be it. It does not make my observations and experience any less valid. Certainly you took the first step in personalising the thread... Further reviewing post #106, you start with a rather emphatic and patently disprovable statement, quote " It is completely false to make the assertion that Europeans drive their cars harder". You also attempt to make yourself an 'authority' regarding UK driving with your comment, quote, "Having lived in the US and the UK, I can talk about the differences with a great deal of experience.". Taking the first comment to task, my having lived in the UK/Europe for half my life, and now in the US, the Germans, Italians, French AND Brits are howling all over Europe every day of the week. You will never see so many bug-splattered and stone chipped Ferrari's parked at hotels as you do in Europe! No 3M film needed there.... Furthermore, having ALSO lived in the US since 85, I still can't decide whether to laugh or cry when a group 'driver meet' is cancelled because there is the mere 'threat' of rain within 100 miles of the city. What is the deal...?, is everyone afraid their car is going to dissolve...? Needless to say, rain or shine, it doesn't matter in Europe. Get on the motorway and let's drive the car as it was designed to drive. As for your second comment, I think there are many members of Ferrari Chat who have as much if not more experience in driving in the UK and Europe as you do, without implying they are some sort of authority on the subject.....oh, funny old thing, i'm one of them. Born within the sound of Big Ben's chimes. To close, the rather vulgar and unsubtantiated attack you make against me and my 'other' posts cannot go without challenge. I suggest you re-post any such posts to verify your serious charge as to my character. I will safely predict that none of them stoop to the level of calling you or anyone else a bigot. In fact, there is a recent post of mine (made some 3 or 4 months ago), where I did come back and apologise, publicly, to the person concerned when i determined that the incident involved was possibly mis-interpreted. I am not so sure I can expect the same from you. Poor humour is about the only thing I could be labeled with. You mention my 'diatribes' on other posts...?, well, I suppose thinking that the 599 is a questionable design should have me drawn an quartered. You can accuse me of being opinionated, and perhaps a stubborn defender of my views. Mature men can disagree on the opinion, but should not deny others theirs. Show me a man 'without' an opinion, and I will show you a man who believes in nothing... What you think of me really doesn't matter, but a man who feels he needs to 'correct' others spelling, denies their right to challenge an opinion, accuses them of a gross personal characteristic...well, that speaks far more of your character, and not mine. You speak of being 'dragged down to my level'....well, i'm not sure what level you're at, or how you got there, but you certainly won't find me there... Regards, Andrew ps. i am sure this will come as a relief to many, but I have said all I am going to say on the subject. I leave further comment, without response, to others.
He bought my slot. I still took delivery of the car...in my name. I then signed it over to him. He picked colors and options, etc. Simple deal. No switching of names, etc Of course.....you as the stealer would want to use my money to order a car, and then make the premium. Sorry, my order, my car, my profit.......if I so choose.
You my friend spend far too much time with a thesaurus, posting rediculousness on the internet...and should spend more time driving in Europe. I go to Europe several times/year TO drive. I only wish my Ferrari or my SL55 were there to enjoy. I don't know who you have been with in Europe but I have many friends and family in Italy....and we all drive our Ferrari's hard, and track them.....and this is rain or shine. The Brits are notorious for heading off to the continent for some automotive fun. I am also a track events coordinator for a region of the FCA. This is essentially a joke of a position because NOBODY will bring their car within 10 miles of a track...let alone on it!! There are a couple of guys that have so I appologise to them if they are reading this. When you have a region with over 300 members and the attendance for a track day is 3 (including me), a drive will bring 20 (if it doesn't put too many miles on...and there isn't a hint of rain, etc), but a PPE Series event! (Posing, Parking and Eating) will bring out 100....I think that states fairly clearly where US Ferrari drivers are.....and don't get me going about driving skill.....or lack thereof. There is even a thread somewhere else on here about a guy that zips and unzips a bubble for a 430 every day. If you take any of this personally.......please forgive me......remember this internet nonsense is all opinions anyway. And speaking of opinions......the reason for this thread was about people paying over MSRP for a 599. Still a dumb idea.....If you have an early one........flip it and buy one 5 years down the road that hasn't been driven, polished with a diaper and kept in a bubble.........for half price.
Agree 100%. Except,I will not flip my 599 (December production) and I will beat the crap out of it on any track day I can get to. (And hard daily driving too,regardless of weather)
