The continued Saga of the '87 Testarossa...

I seem to recall the story of the TR that James Glickhaus drove year round in New York, (including snow). Please correct me if I am wrong.

**Previously posted on Fchat********

"While out of town James's mechanic sold the car only because it was rusted out so badly that it wasn't worth fixing. Otherwise it was in fine mechanical shape, the engine original and unrebuilt at 120k+ miles."

 

Some people can break a steel ball. It is usually a sign of poor care. By that I mean someone who just doesn't care. Drives it like he stole it and only opens the hood when it won't go anymore. On average those are signs of a car you want to stay away from. If the motor is having trouble what makes you think every other system is not in the same condition. I have delt with many cars like that ...once. The car broke so he brings it in. It is detailed within an inch of its life. The Valets and girls in the bars are pretty impressed but the car is a 4 wheeled display of deferred maint. All they want to address is why it won't go. I fix them once and send them on their way with the message that our short business relationship is over. They bought it to look cool and have no intention and very possibly no money to maintain it.


Also if I read everything correctly the mechanic could not tell if the leakage is rings or valves? Just why was he doing a leak down test? That is exactly what that tool is for. If you have losses from both it can be hard to quantify each. That statement if I read it right really gives me serious doubts. You said he was the senior mechanic. I can be described as a senior mechanic as well but dont let age impress you. I know people from all trades and professions that have been doing it badly for a long time. Screw age, find some talent.

Just say no.

Testarossas are not rare.

 

Spasso,

I sort of remember Jim's story about the daily driver TR. I think you are correct about the 120K miles - mostly around NYC. If I recall, the frame broke (due to rust??). At which point, they deemed that the car was done.

The post might be in the 400 section, in a thread about daily driving Ferraris in New York City.

Regards,

Art S.

 

hmmm....we can assume then that they have squirted some oil in the cylinders and did the compresssion test / leak down to see if the oil made a difference? If no change it's valves, it it does change is rings. Also it sounds like their compression tester may be "out of calibration"?. I say this because even if that Enzo had an electronics issue it SHOULD NOT make any difference to the mechanical aspects of compression. They should check their gage with a known source to see if it is acurate. Or perhaps they could try several different gages to see if the results is consistent. Flat-Twelve motors are extremely well built and unless the motor injested some foreign material or had some other issue occur from long storage, I can't imagine it would need anything major internally. Something still doesn't add up. Was the car abused? I mean the trans issue could indicate a rough life. Bottom line if everything gets fixed and fixed right and the price is right...you should have a very nice car there. Please keep us updated.

 

Dear Ferraristi,


Dear James,

I have been following your postings with keen interest. I drive a 91 Testarossa myself and really love the car. Yes...it's very expensive to maintain, but I really have no interest in any other Ferrari.

That said, I know you want to get into one of these fab. cars, but I would say, time to move on. Like everyone is saying, these engines are solid.... expensive to maintain, but solid. One red flag + trans. red flag should tell you that this car is not for you. If you're really looking for a great car, forget ebay ( I know this is not an ebay car ) and buy one from a F dealer. They usually have the better cars with good records. While I love a Testa, they are not a rare car. You can find very good examples if you look.

I would also give rifledriver a second listen. He is quite terse sometimes but he really seems to know his stuff. Carguy has owned Testarossas for quite a few years now and even does his own majors. I've followed both their advice as well. Me...well I'm just a TR guy that has learned so much from this forum. As the old phrase " don't take a candle lite at nite to what you can see in the day"

I hope my post will be taken for what it is, just a piece of helpfull advice. I really want you to get a good TR and enjoy the heck out of it. I bought mine with 18k and now have 37k on it. I drive it as a daily driver and concours it for fun.

Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Yes, that's it.

 

Walk away. Do you really think that someone who is selling a TR with engine and tranny damage is going to go all out on the repairs? He'll patch it up at minimal expense and send it down the line.

What's the serial number, in case the records 'get lost' in the near future?

 

The seller is crazy...

He will be fairly lucky to get 55,000$ for this car, due to the mileage, and history. Probably lucky to get high 40's. And he is doing 30,000$ in repairs?!?!

His net will be 20,000$ or less, especially after he pays a commission sell. Absolutely absurd.

If he advertised the car in the paper as needing "some work" he would sellf or the high thirties, and some DIY would buy it. He would net 10,000$ more, or 30,000$. This still s8cks for the seller, but such is life.

If the seller thinks that the car will sell in the 60's, with a rebuilt trans, engine work, and who knows what else...he is misguided. Perfect low mileage cars have a hard time selling for that...

 

Boy this saga just gets deeper and deeper. There are two sides to this coin that's for sure, and we are seeing both. I still take the position that if this car is repaired correctly and completely it will be good car. If I were buying a TR with an upgraded trans/diff I would think that is a plus NOT a minus. I feel we are too quick to call this car rubish. If I were able to watch the repairs being done and KNOW that they were done correctly I would not have any problems buying the car. How many cars out there have had work done and all you have is some paperwork and a stamp in a book showing work was done...but you have no idea HOW WELL the work was...what quality. I think that sometimes too much emphasis is placed on "perceived" quality and service work. These are getting to be old cars and things will happen even to well-cared-for cars. Will we still be looking for all the ducks-in-a-row cars in 20 years? Oh there will be a few that were never enjoyed by the owners...that's the only way you'll have a car like that.

bpu699 has some good points about values. I feel this car when fixed will be in the mid-fifties range. I give credit to the seller for doing right by the car and fixing what ever needs fixed.

And of course all us TR guys listen-up when rifledriver speaks....he is the living bible for fixers like me. His experience and advice is priceless for us.

I say just use your head, heed advice, and go with your gut on this car. If you don't buy it that's fine. But if you do buy it, by all means enjoy it and don't let the detractors get to you. If this car was very valuable like say an F-40 or something...I would be more fussy about proper records and pristine condition. But TRs are high value for little money right now and the difference between a fixed TR and an absolutely perfect one isn't all that much. I wish you and the car the best of luck and please keep us informed.

 

The big issues are:

1) 51,000 miles. Like it or not, thats a lot. This alone pushes the value of the car into the low 50's, and dare I say, mid-forties.

We can talk all we want about drivers and garage queens. When I was at LFSC, I asked why they only carry cars with 20,000 miles or less (for the most part). They said higher mileage cars were impossible to sell. Most of the comments on this site bare that out.

2) Car now has issues, likely due to the high mileage. Needs a diff. Needs an engine rebuild?! Sure, these things can be fixed, but you still have a car with 50,000 plus miles. Whats next? Fusebox? Brakes? Corrosion? Electrics? Shocks? Whatever. You get the idea.

Most 50,000 mile + testarossa's I have seen/looked at were being sold at NON-ferrari dealers, with asking prices in the low 50's. Likely selling for less. Wasn't Henryk offered 30,000$ for his 88.5 testarossa, with 50,000 miles?

Thats the reality of it.

So, if a no stories 50,000 mile car is worth perhaps 50,000$ (which I doubt), whats this car worth? Bare in mind you can get testarossa's with 20,000 or less miles, with no issues, for 55,000$ all day long.

Fixing this car, at dealer prices...is silly. The owner will be in a huge hole, and reluctant to sell the car at a reasonable (read:market) price.

If you, as the buyer, get this car for 55,000$, you will be financially screwed. Sorry, its true. The moment you drive it off the lot, its a 40-45,000$ car. Why do that to yourself?!

If you drive this car a bit, say put 10,000 miles on it...then what is it worth (60,000 plus miles)? Mid thirties, maybe?

WAKE UP! Buy a car with 15,000 miles (verify mileage) for 55,000$ and call it a day. Unless you appreciate the financial masochism you are volunteering for.

Ask LFSC what they would PAY YOU for this car if you wanted to sell it to them. Go ahead. Get it in writing.

When I was buying my car, they told me that they DO NOT sell cars with any history of body damage, or significant engine work - too much possibility of disgruntled buyers in the future...

 

Bo,

You have valid points. Personally, I think the owner is crazy for doing all of this work if he intends to sell. My guess it that he will keep it when he's done. However, if he still intends to sell, the resulting car will have good mechanicals with fresh seals and rubber bits - remember, some stuff deteriorates with age rather than milage - that should make for many happy miles. If James's intention is to keep it and drive it for many years, I would strongly consider buying it (assuming the price is right).

Regards,

Art S.

 

Art, what would YOU pay for this car?

 

Bo,

Good question. I'm not really in the market for a TR so my answer is based on gut sense rather than research, but if I was in the market and I was confident that all of the work was done well and my intention was to keep it, I might go to $50+K on it. Personally, cars that have spent most of their lives sitting around make me nervous.

Regards,

Art S.

 

F.Y.I. - Henryk's Black/Tan TR had 66k miles on it and he was offered $35k. This talk of TRs with less then 20k miles being the only ones to get is a double-edged sword. First: It makes the buyers think that this is the only way to go and that TRs with over 50k miles are ready to fall apart (Not necessarily true). Second....and this is a BIG PROBLEM: This thinking causes many to disconnect their odometers to keep miles down and the car marketable. How many "low mile" cars are out there with higher miles...LOTS of them I'm sure. I have seen many myself with less then 20k miles and yet the carpets and pedals were badly worn. So now you have no way to know...or ever truly find out...how many miles are on the car. The bad rap for miles on Ferraris truly hurts everyone. Owners are afraid to drive the cars, and buyers often times don't get what they are paying top dollar for. It's a revolving door unfortunately. And much of it has its roots in expensive service work and maintenance. Such is the world of Ferraris. I wish it were like in Europe where they drive the cars and maintain them. In Europe they take driving much more seriously than we do in the US. I hope that buyer's perceptions of a good quality car evolve some day. Because miles are NOT the only standard to judge these cars by.

bpu699 - I hear you....and I reluctantly nod in agreement to much of what you say as the hard truth. If we buy these cars to drive and sell, then pay attention to the market. If we are buying to drive and keep for some time....the market is a bit less important. It is up to the customer and what their plans are for the car I guess.

 

Jeff, agree with you on the mileage. I suspect many (most?) cars are not accurate when it comes to mileage. But, perception is reality. And in a sea of 20,000 mile ferrari's, few want a 50-60,000 mile car.

Most folks are scared sill of potential repairs. Might a high mileage car be a better car? Maybe? Which car will 99 of 100 people pick? The low mileage one.

I feel badly for the owner, he took a beating on this car. Someone should buy it, nurture it, and enjoy it. But don't delude yourself about its value...

 

For reference:

Here in Chicago alone, last 1-2 years:

1) My white/red (yes, off color ) 1987, 9000 miles, 53,000$
2) red/beige 1987, 15,000 miles (looked like more), 56,000$
3) red/beige 1991, 15,000 miles (immaculate-show winner), 65,000$

And the list goes on. I WANT my car to be worth more, and one day it will be. But testarossa, can be found in the 50's pretty easily. Asking price and selling price DO NOT corralate.

Asking price on my car was supposedly 70,000$ initially. Car #3 was high 70's.

Look harder.

Didn't you mention that the owner would want around 65,000$ for this car after repairs?

 

I wish that car and its story would just go away. I wanted that car BAD and just missed out.......

And it will forever haunt me!!! Seriously.......

 

James....has your ZR-1 been expensive to maintain? As I too am a former ZR-1 owner I can say I was impressed with the durability of the motor. The ZF trans is another matter. But those cars didn't suffer from many problems. I'm sure parts are scarce by now and very expensive though. Is it just time to move on or is there a reason your selling the ol'e LT-5?