FERRARI ENGINE FIRES

If I’m not mistaken, Halon is heavier than air, so in the case of an engine fire, the Halon will just drift down and eventually ‘fall’ out the bottom of the engine compartment. Fine if the fire is still cool, as the Halon will probably put it out, but if a hot fire, once the Halon has dissipated, the fire might well re-ignite.
I think a water based foam extinguisher would be a better bet as the foam will stick to the engine / engine compartment area, exclude the oxygen (break the fire chain), and cool the hot components.
The foam itself is not detrimental to electronics, but the water base might cause a little havoc. But then you are suppose to be able to get these cars wet, aren’t you?
John

 

I've always thought the same, JTR...

I'd rather have a mess on my hands and still have the car!

 

Gasoline does not burn. Its the fumes that burn, and it needs oxygen plus either enough heat to reach flash point, or a spark. When I was 14 years old I watched two guys drive into our corner gas station with a 440 roadrunner with a six pack. Thats three two barrel carbs sitting on a big V-8. I dont know if it had a broken line or a stuck float or what, but it was pouring a lot of fuel all over the top of the engine. And they never shut it off, they just opened the hood, seen the fuel, closed the hood and drove away. They drove a few miles away to the one guys house and fixed it, seen it a week later looking just fine, it never lit. When I was young and dumb I had more than a few cars with fuel leaks, but nothing ever caught fire. I never seen very many cars as a kid sitting in junk yards that burned either. Its the newer cars since they went to FI and cats. Now you can walk through salvage yards and see one car after another burned to the ground. Newer cars operate at higher tempertures, have very high pressure fuel systems with high flow rates, and high energy ignitions. Now couple that with a cat that could easily operate over 1500 degrees, and you have a lot of fire potential. Just an FYI, but most Bosch CIS fuel pumps can easily pump over two liters of fuel in 15 seconds while maintaining a line pressure of over 70 psi.

I also agree that first and formost we all need to make sure our fuel systems are in good repair, newer hoses of highest quality, good fittings, etc. With catalytic convertors, keeping the car in a high state of tune is also paramount to protecting it. And while I would never say a fire extinguisher is unneccesary, getting yourself and your passenger out and away from a burning car is a far higher priority. My dad is 84, and I know he would need help getting out in case of a fire on those times I have him with, which means I have to get around to the passenger side of the car post haste, and fighting the fire would be an absolute last resort. Ditto for when I take the grandson strapped into his car seat, or even my 9 year old daughter, who may panic under such circumstances. I really like my Ferrari, but I love my wife and everyone else I know a hell of a lot more.

 

You can get the $130 automatic ABC fire extinguishers at West Marine, which is cool because in my experience there is a West Marine everywhere that Ferrari's are sold.

There are some good comments on this thread, but also some off-base, shot-from-the-hip comments that could cause good people to go without a fire extinguisher (the worst of all ideas).

1. at a minimum put an ABC hand-held extinguisher in your cockpit. A=wood/paper, B=electrical, and C=gasoline/diesel/oil/grease fire. Super-Target has these for as little as $12.

2. An automatic fire-extinguisher in your engine compartment will work even if you are in a crash that knocks you unconscious. You can buy these for as little as $130 for the Fire-Foe, which I have been using for 1,000 miles per month over the past half year in the engine compartment of my Ferrari 348 Spider (it's easy to mount above the OEM fuel cooler pipe).

My main complaint about the Fire Foe is that they have a ridiculous website that lists a 130 degree "operating temperature" as if the thing would kick off at 131F. It won't. The literature that comes in the Fire-Foe box states that it can't kick off at less than 170 degrees (and that even then it would only kick off at that low of a temperature if there was a sudden, drastic rise to 171F), which I can assure you that you won't see above your OEM gasoline fuel cooler pipe unless you have an actual engine fire!

There are much, much better automatic fire-extinguishers out there than Fire-Foe (e.g. Halon-1211 types). By all means install a **better** automatic fire extinguisher...just don't forego an auto-extinguisher due to price. You can get one that **will** put out (or at least give you time to exit the car) an engine fire for $130. So do that much at a minimum.

3. For me, the large, expensive, super-great fire-extinguishers are redundant. I just want time to get my daughter and myself out of the car during a fire, even if my seat belt has been jammed and I have to break a music CD in half to saw my belt in half.

For this I have the hand-held ABC in the cockpit and the automatic Fire-Foe in the engine bay. So I've got fire protection even if I'm knocked unconscious, plus I've got a backup unit in the cockpit if I have a jammed seat belt.

Anything bigger than that just means an insurance claim.

The real problem with the super-great, expensive fire systems is that they cause otherwise sensible people to put off buying and installing their fire extinguishers. People delay what they view as non-mandatory purchases when they see a "large" price/cost.

That's the mistake.

At the very least go with a cheap system. Upgrade later if you want, just don't go unprotected.

 

I was chatting with an owner of a fire extinguisher company. He carries a tiny Halon extinguisher in the car (for an 1960's austin Healey bug-eye). But he refuted the claim dry chemicals damage the block in short order. He contended if cleaned off in a reasonable amount of time, they do no damage (his personal experience). He did say if left on for a few days, then yes they will corrode many aluminum parts.

 

I snipped this for a couple reasons. First of all, I have never had an extinguisher in any car I ever owned, and this thread has me thinking differently.

Secondly, the stuck seat belt thing is a very real issue. I was just in a real estate agents Ford Explorer, and the seat belt female clip jammed so you could NOT put the male end in. I looked at it and concluded it could have probably locked up with the male end inserted. I think you would be there a while trying to cut through a belt with a broken CD. So maybe we need to have something accessable in the cockpit to aid in extracating ourselves?

Now, tell me about why a larger unit would change the insurance claim. Are there insurance issues with having an extinguisher in your car?

Last, why not install a bigger bottle in the boot as long as you are going to fire it electronically. I would also think you would want a hooded and safety wired switch in the cockpit to keep it from being accidently actuated. Are there any systems that fire mechanically instead of relying on the electrical system?

 

My engine compartment (Diablo Roadster) gets above 140F after a drive on a normal day. I had to test it once with a thermometer to get the temp for the decklid lift supports. From that, I would guess that on the track or after a long drive on a hot day it could get up to 170F. My calculations showed I would need a lift support that would be OK at 200F to feel comfortable under all conditions (worst case scenario).

I read up a lot on car fires because you tend to run across them when reading about exotics. Exotics run with really, really hot engines. The advice from everyone in the know is.. if you have a car fire, get the hell out of there. Don't try to put it out yourself.

The fumes from a burning car are highly toxic and things can/will explode and throw stuff on you that sticks and burns. Best to get as far away as possible as fast as possible and let the fire department clean up the mess.

Carrying an extinguisher seems like a good idea but if your car is burning, trying to put it out yourself isn't normally a good idea. An automatic extinguisher or button that you can press and run out would be the only viable options I'd be interested in but I would never want the thing going off when its not supposed to.

 

Though pretty rare, static electricity can start a fire so having an extinguisher that's accessable will certainly help if it's ever needed.

http://www.fugly.com/media/videodir1159462740/Scary/static_electricity_gas-pump_fire.wmv

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=706226n

 

No Doubt, are you referring only to older cars, or would you say that someone like me with a well-sorted 2004 360 Modena should also put in an automatic unit in the engine bay?

 

In my own personal opinion, you should have *some* level of fire protection in every high performance vehicle.

Just some sort of emergency backup protection should something unforseen occur.

For instance, even a well-sorted 360 could catch fire if hit in the wrong way by some other car/driver.

Give yourself time to get out of the car safely. I don't want to see any harm come to you or to your loved ones. That's all that I'm saying.

I talk about the low-cost units only to emphasize that the cost should not be the reason for going unprotected (and I know for you that cost isn't the issue, but for others reading, perhaps).

 

Five, you make great points.

Your goal shouldn't be to extinguish the fire. Your goal should be to get yourself and your loved one out of the car safely in some sort of emergency.

If your automatic fire extinguisher puts out the fire entirely, even better...but as you say, that's more of an issue for insurance and fire department professionals.

Many cars may need a better unit than the cheapest available. I'm all for putting better units into the car; what I'm not for is doing without an extinguisher due to price.

If "price" is someone's reason for not having an extinguisher, then they need to know about the $12 Super-Target handheld ABC units and the $130 automatic engine bay fire extinguishers.

For those who aren't concerned about price, then buy the units that are even better than the above.

Just don't go without fire protection.

Please.

 

Art, please. Please carry at least a $12 ABC handheld fire extinguisher in your cockpit. Better units would be preferable, but please, please don't drive unprotected.

I mention breaking the music CD in half simply because not all of us carry a pocket knife. If you have a seatbelt cutter (they are usually paired with a windshield/window breaker) in your car, even better...but if you've got **nothing** to cut a jammed seat belt when your car is on fire, then break a music CD in half and use the sharp glasslike edge to saw your stuck seat belt in half.

My apologies. I'm not trying to say that using a small or large fire extinguisher would change an insurance claim. I just didn't say what I meant very well.

It would take a fairly large unit to *guarantee* that you could personally put out any possible car fire. I'm not really a fan of that sort of solution/protection.

I'm more of a fan of the smaller fire extinguishers. For one thing, people who don't have any fire protection today would be more likely to buy/install a small extinguisher, and I want to encourage that.

People can go into decision paralysis where they don't buy any fire extinguisher because they think that they have to have some huge, expensive unit in their car.

So they drive unprotected.

Instead, I'd prefer to see at least a small level of protection. Buy the small handheld. Buy the cheapo automatic unit for the engine bay.

By the way, there are some *great* mechanical fire extinguishers out there. There are some great push-button electrically-actuated fire extinguishers out there.

That's great. Go for those if they suit you. Just don't go unprotected.

Get *something* in your car today. Seriously.

Upgrade later.

 

Many, usually operated by pull cable or a mechanical push piece. FireBottle and others make such a device. As for the electrical system, the FireBottle and others can/do use a separate box that is powered by a simple 9V battery so you do not rely on anything from the car's electrical system.

AIFF foam is what many of the pros use. OMP offers these systems. i went with Halon as a 'first defense' as at the track there are marshalls with very large extinguishers that use chemicals. If my halon works, great, if it needs help there are track marshalls.

As others have said, your best defence is a good offence so change ALL oil and fuel lines with high quality hoses.

 

Preventative maintenence is great advice, but if it does catch fire let it burn, thats what insurance is for. Who wants to fix a burned up Ferrari that will only give you problems down the road. I know this is harsh, but at the end of the day its true.

 

Daiblo456, did you get a slow down light when the cat overheated on your car?

 

I have spent some time looking into the fire suppression issue. For me, it's not at all an issue of a fuel or oil leak or whatever causing a fire while the car is otherwise operating normally. This does happen a lot on old and new exotics. The thread title usually goes like: "Disaster on my drive this weekend - fire..." The thread is written in the first person - i.e. driver and passenger noticed fire and exited the car, then watched it burn, then took pictures and wrote about it on f-chat. OK that sucks and it's probably a total loss and a hand-held or push-button extinguisher may or may not have helped (they are still a good idea).

I am really freaked out by the prospect of being in an accident, and the car subsequently catching fire. I guess race car drivers have the presence of mind to press the fire button while in a skid headed for the wall, but I'm not sure if I would.

I like the idea of the firefoe a lot, and I've seen other heat-activated ones that use a conventional bottle and fusible link "sprinkler heads." These are popular on boats because you're not in the engine compartment or even on the boat most of the time, so fire supression needs to be automatic.

Would these work properly after a crash? I don't know.

What about an inertial activation system that would go off in any crash, whether there was a fire or not? A lot of crash fires happen after other damage has occurred - ie split lines spurting on a hot manifold. It would be nice if there was already a nice coating of foam all over the place.

From what I've read, Halon is nice in enclosed spaces like airplane fuselages, and equiptment lockers and the like, maybe even in a Ferrari passenger compartment. Would it work in a Ferrari engine bay? My guess is that if it is remotely activated in a closed compartment loke the 360/430 has, then yes. Otherwise it is probably next to useless.

Has anyone actually put out an outdoor fire (like a car fire) with Halon?

I know dry chemical has a bad reputation, probably largely unfounded, but what about the modern foams that stick in place, cool things off, and supress the fire at the same time? You don't see firemen at airplane crashes shooting Halon at the fire. They use foam, right?

Sorry for the long post - my main point is that we sould be worried about post-accident fires and how to stop them. Look for the thread in the Lambo section about the Murcielago and the charred race driver and model passenger. It doesn't look like a lethal wreck - they burned alive.

 

Chris/Brian, I share your concerns.

All of the pressurized, automatic fire extinguishers are going to work after a crash.

The whole way that they work is that either heat or impact stress melts or ruptures their containers.

For Fire-Foe, that's a PVC tube. Other systems have pressurized surgical tubing. All of those systems are filled with a powder or gel. Break the tubing and the pressurized system ejects the powder/gel.

An accident could rupture them, but the discharge into the engine bay is comparitively harmless compared to the sort of wreck that would rupture them, or compared to the fire that you could have without them.

Those systems are reasonably inexpensive because they are often one-shot devices. They work once. That's it.

And frankly, that's enough. Any of us who see one kick off will simply buy a new one, and I doubt that any of us have so many fires put out by such one-shot devices as to make them financially unfavorable compared to the bigger, more elaborate, re-useable systems.

But, with a one-shot automatic, pressurized system you aren't dependent upon any mechanical devices to work during a fire/wreck (this is non-trivial, as the pull handle might be jammed or covered up by the vehicle that hit you), nor on electrical circuits to still function after/during a fire/wreck, nor are you dependent on the driver being conscious and clever-enough to remember to hit a button after a fire/wreck.

The PVC or surgical tubing melts and the chemical discharges.

I like "simple." I like a safety factor.

I've got my 4 year old daughter strapped into a child "safety" seat while riding around in a 12 year old gasoline-powered "race-car."

What do I do if a seat belt is jammed? What do I do if there is a fire?

A simple pocketknife, an automatic fire extinguisher in the engine bay, and a handheld unit in the cockpit, all with a total cost of less than $150, is a considerable piece of mind while I continue to live my life, my way, with no limits placed upon me.

It's low cost. It's simple. It's redundant. It would work even if I was knocked out in an impact.

I just don't see the argument against it.

 

Thanks for the clarification - keep it simple, right?

 

Couldn't agree more. Let it burn. I can't imagine trying to sell a Ferrari and disclosing it caught fire and had $40,000.00 of damage. What a white elephant that would be. Save yourself and take the insurance money and by another one.....Charlie

 

This is pure hog pucky. My first fire was put out with a 2-3/4 pound dry chemical, el cheapo. The fact that i put it out in about 45 seconds meant that the insurance claim was for a hood repaint, a bit of electrical work and a couple of fuel lines.

Even worse, lets imagine that you have a ton of personal time in fixing up your car, not just personalizing it but making the car what you want, nice exhaust, sway bars, bushings, stereo, ect. Will the insurance pay to give you a new car like it was before??? not likely. you are going to loose a lot.

Even worse than the above, imagine you are in the car, hurt and the thing is on fire and you have no extinguisher, is the insurance going to help??? maybe your widow.

Be proactive. get a good one, put it near you in the car. At the worst, you will never use it, or maybe come to the aid of some bufoon who is watching his pride and joy go up in flames because he doesn't have an extinguisher.

end of rant, (man that got me worked up).

best,
chris

 

No Doubt, you are not going to cut a seat belt in any reasonable amount of time with a broken in half cd. Have you actually attempted this? Or just something you heard on the Net? Sure it might work in 15 minutes or so...but not in a hurry.

I carry a Spyderco Delica folding knife...not for cutting seatbelts, but for opening boxes and stuff...but if I needed to, I could cut a belt....but I doubt that jammed seatbelt mechanisms is as common as one would think. I will have to ask my firefighter buddies some time...

PS: I do have fire extinguishers in both my cars..for no other reason than it may be helpful for some other unfortunate soul out there....

 

I only mentioned breaking the Music CD in half to use for cutting a seat belt for those who don't carry a pocket knife.

Best to have something sharp, rather than nothing.

You can smash your high-mounted center mirror and use the glass to cut off a seat belt, too. If your car is on fire and you are trapped by your seat belt, getting your hand cut by glass is the least of your worries.

Do what it takes to survive. Immolation is a bad way to go.

And we can't all be prepared with perfect tools for every occasion. You might be in a taxi, or in a friend's car, or being driven around by a real estate estate where you don't have your normal safety devices.

So break a music CD or break a mirror or a window. Do what it takes to get out of the car without being burned alive.

 

No, I didn't. Only warning was sluggish performance followed by the clutch falling to the floor. It's been a while since I owned the TR, I don't even recall if it had a specific, cat overheat warning?

 

My only argument is that this sounds way too MacGyverish...and I would like to see if it is even at all practical or not...the mirror idea gives more promise...but breaking one could be very difficult to impossible with many mirrors...they are by design, made not to break...it would be interesting to spend an afternoon in a auto junk yard and try these though.

BTW, you can have a folding knife just about anywhere but an airplane...and I pull mine out of my checked bag as soon as I yank it off the carousel.

 

I had a 86 testarossa totaled by a fire when I was driving it. turned out to be a catalytic converter fire. Did not have a fire extinguisher at the time. If I was drinking I could of peed on the fire and put it out. Took 25 minutes for the fire dept to get there and by that time the car was gone. A couple of notes for everybody out there. At the time of the fire I had a full tank of gas and when everybody that stopped to help told be to get away from the car I did because the car was insured and I'm not! If the car was on 1/4 to a empty tank the tanks may of exploded, since the vapors explode and not gas,if you have a full tank of gas it will not explode and you will panic. it was slow motion and then the people around you get crazy. keep your head and use your fire extinguisher till its empty and then get away and wait for the fire dept and hope there response time is faster then mine was.