Massa is a better racer and a better team player than Alonso!
Better team player yes, which is why they let him drive the #2 car. Alonso is the #1 driver. #1 drivers aren't team players. But Massa doesn't even come close to the guys that had that seat before him: Rubens, Salo, Irvine. You'd have to go pre Berger/Alesi to match him up. Larini is about his level. The fact he won in Turkey really shows how darn good the Ferrari has become. It was only the blunder of Ferrari's flawed pit strategy that kept MS from winning that race. PS: I like Massa just fine and he is increasingly doing a better job as #2. But he ain't no racing God. There are a bunch of better people in the grid that could easily outdo him with equal equipment. Heck, they outdid him with lesser equipment in the past.
I've always wondered about Ferrari's choice of the 2nd driver. They never go for two great drivers. Massa is just another Irvine or Barrichello (ie: not top tier, and some people might say not even 2nd tier).
If Ferrari wasn't impressed with Massa, if they really felt he wasn't of any value to them, they just as well could have let him go alltogether if MS was staying on. But that never seemed to be the case. He has the speed and scored 62 of Ferrari's 168 constructorpoints so far this season. I wouldn't call that useless. I would call that capable. Your boy Irvine scored 74 points at his best season for Ferrari, in 1999. He (Massa) showed he is even capable of winning races. Turkey was no fluke, with both Schumacher and Alonso finishing the race as well, but no where near Massa. You may have your doubts about Massa, or believe he leaves some to be desired. Hell, I would even agree on that on. Calling him useless however is simply ignoring the facts and that's the only thing I'm pointing out to you. But, as I said, whatever works for you. Not really any point in debating this any further.
and what team does go for two top drivers? For a decade every team that didn't have Michael Schumacher in their ranks were actually make do with second rate. In 2007, Renault will compete with hasbeen Fisichella and uncertainty Kovalainen. Williams has retained the services of Rosberg and Alexander Wurz. McLaren takes Alonso, but is supposedly partnering him with new boy Hamilton. None of these teams carry two contemporary topdrivers, and in that respect Ferrari has the best line-up out of the bunch.
F1 is a team sport! anyone who denies that does not know anything about F1! Great teams win championships! Great teams are made up of great team players! Individuals end up like JV! I would much rather have 100 Massa(s) than one stupid individual Alonso!
Perhaps I should rephrase: I don't even think that Massa is better than Heidfeld, Webber, or Button. One of which was available this year.
Calling him useless is exaggerated. True. There are very few F1 drivers who really are useless. My point is that there are a lot of F1 drivers more capable than him. There are other reasons why they kept him: For one he has been testing and developing the Ferrari engine since his Sauber days, so he is experienced. Second (or maybe that should be first) his manager is Jean Todt's son. Third he is fast, no doubt and one of the if not the fastest starter in F1. But he also has a dismal track record and what he did in some of the races this year was utterly pathetic, particularly in Hungary. The points comparison with Irvine doesn't work really as it was a different points system. If you compare results you'll see how much more successful Irvine was. But then again he raced for Ferrari a lot longer. So that whole comparison doesn't really work. Besides: Irvine is a God to me. Do I think Massa will win again? Yes (btw it was me who posted the first poll here on FChat asking whether people think he could score a win this year). Would there be other F1 drivers way more qualified than he is? Hell yes.
Different points system homie. 10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 in 1999, not 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Go do the math and report back to us if you still believe Massa is doing better than Eddie. Face it, Ferrari just want a guy who is pleased to accept the #2 spot. That is all they want. They want NO ONE to compete with their number 1 driver. That screws up the chance for the WDC lockup. He's fast because he's in the Ferrari. Compare his times to Michael's, in the same car, not others.
Ferrari strategy wasn't flawed. It was a SC-situation and with their strategy being what it is, they really had no other possibility than to bring both cars in at the same time. It only kept MS from winning the race because he dropped back behind Alonso. If he could've kept second, he'd probably would've won the race. Not because he was quicker than Massa (since he simply wasn't), but because of teamorders. Your unfounded comment about Massa not even getting close to Salo, Irvine and Barrichello (may I remind you that Larini was never considered for a fulltime racingposition?) I'm just going have to let go. Even I have my limits.
Of course F1 is a team sport. That's precisely why they keep Massa because he accepts 2nd fiddle. Guys like Kimi, MS and Alonso are #1 drivers. They never accept 2nd position. I know you will disagree, but I say it anyway: MS drives for himself. Not for the team. And not for Massa. And that's really not wrong. He should drive for himself. The fact that he stayed 3rd in Turkey was not him being gracious to the team, but Todt screwing up the pit strategy. What would be a really question is whether a team is more successful with two top drivers (McLaren with Senna vs Prost) or with one star (Ms and <insert name here>) and one water carrier. You can make arguments pro and con either solution.
Wow. I'm stunned. Obviously we have to agree to disagree. Just what made Massa so valuable in your opinion? I would rate him past midfield somewhere in the neighbourhood of a Dornboos or Speed. As somebody knowledgeable here once said: "Massa's goal is to keep the car between the white lines on the track."
I have done just that, and whaddayaknow, he ain't doing that bad, considering he is up against a 7times WDC who has more Ferrari-seasons under his belt than most of us would care to remember.
Well, that's interesting. How can you compare Doornbos to Massa? When was the last time you've seen Doornbos race in anything competitive enough to compare him to Massa?
So you actually believe it would have been better to leave either Massa or Schumacher out, with the safety car on the track?
Actually, out of the bunch I would probably only rate Heidfeld slightly higher then Massa. All the rest is on par (Jenson Button, Rubens Barrichello, Mark Webber and Fisichella perhaps, allthough Fisico is getting slower and slower it seems), below par (Ralf Schumacher, Nico Rosberg, Pedro Delarosa) or way below par.
Leave Massa out. Pit Schumacher and get him out in front of Alonso. I'm no Schumi fan, but that's what I would have done. I spoke to many arduous MS supporters and they were furious over what Ferrari did to their hero. Nobody could understand that move.
I guess we'll find out over the next few years. BTW: I was a strong believer in Quick Nick, but lost that belief. No longer highly rated in my book. And the Dornboos question should get answered in a few hours. At least the competitive part of it. From all I've seen so far he has a nack for being in people's ways. I fear already for Alonso. PS: I'm glad somebody on here even remembers Larini. I gotta be more careful with my comparisons. Next time I'll mention Giovanardi.
F1 is a team sport and I will always support the starategy Ferrari follows! In F1, there is only one right way... the Ferrari way!
Impy, could you explain to all of us, why you have this personnal 'vendetta' against Alonso? What did the guy ever did to you? We know too well, that for you only Ferrari exists, and that you worship Schumacher. Fine, but what is it that any other team or driver is rubbish in your opinion? This permanent tongue-lashing is becoming tiresome. Would it be better for you if MS was parading alone on a track for 2 hours?
Once again Imperial Putz spews his stupidty on the Board. Of course had anyother driver besides Alonso beaten Schumacher and was his main rival, this dork would say the samething about that driver. Nothing Intelligent, just mindless drivel.
