More ethanol = increased octane

Predictable retort...an insult with nothing to back yourself up.

 

From http://www.ethanol.org/usingethanol.html (which I would presume is not the website of a snake oil salesman, since it agrees with my earlier reference, Chevron's website).

•Ethanol is an oxygenate, and that oxygen allows it to burn more cleanly and more completely than gasoline.

This agrees with JCR's post that Ethanol is an oxygenate, something that I never disagreed with, nor was it a subject of this discussion.

•Pure 100% ethanol has an octane rating of 113, so adding 10% ethanol to gasoline raises the overall octane by 2 to 3 points.

This agrees with what I said, that adding more ethanol to a gasoline increases its octane.

JCR, if you are telling me that Ethanol does not increase octane, then I have to disagree with you. If you are saying that it does not increase it enough to be significant and they are adding something ELSE to fuel to increase octane, please enlighten me what that is, because I would like to know. When I go to the pump in MA, we have three different octane-rated gasolines, and unless they are all exactly the same and the whole thing is a scam, there must be something different in the 93 octane than the 87. My 308, with a fairly low compression engine, runs equally well on both.

Birdman

 

Ok, birdman. You need to read this thread from the beginning and read the hyperlinks and please take your time.

Yes, your gasoline is available in 87, 91 and 93 octane. It was available in those octanes when no oxygenate was required, and the octanes stayed the same when either MTBE or ethanol was added. Why? Because refiners can use a lower grade (cheaper octane) of base gasoline since they are adding a higher octane oxygenate. Cat cracking and alkylation costs money. Gasoline octane=money. If the national standard was 80 octane instead of 87 octane, refiners could squeeze more gallons of gasoline per barrel of oil.

The 87 and 93 octane are not determined by the amount of ethanol, but by the refinery streams of the base gasoline. If your state is one where the EPA mandates that the oxygenate be 2.7% by weight. It will be 2.7% in all grades. Therefore 87 octane won't have more ethanol than 93 octane.

I'm sure your 308 has no problem with 87 octane. Fine. This was discussing Dinos and the problems of ethanol in those cars.

 

Not applicable to the discussion here. Back in the early 80's I owned a Phillips 66 station in Minnesota (great building for a shop but I had to take the gas as a contract was in place at the time of sale). All the grades of fuel came from the same tap at the refinery when filling the trucks. The difference from low grade to high grade was additive only at that time. Low grade got nothing, mid grade got 1 coffee can of "super powder" dumped in the top fill port of the tanker and high grade got 2 cans. Stations that were close to the refinery had problems as the drive there was not enough to mix up the powdered additives in the tanker.
Same truck hauled fuel for the Mobil station next door filled from the same tap.
It was not uncommon for me to recieve 300 gallons of water in a 5000 gal load this time of year (any time there is a big temp swing from daytime to night). The pick up pipe in the bottom of the underground tank stood 14" off the bottom so the water was seperated after a day of sitting. Lesson is to never fill up at a station where you see the tanker filling their tanks. It was very rare to find any station that ever pumps the water out of the bottom of their tanks. The common pratice was to dump 5 gals of alcohol into the underground tank prior to them being filled to suspend the water. I had mine pumped out every fall where they would charge me insane money to haul the water away.
What comes out of the stations pump is highly changed from what is tested at the refinery or depot.

Dave

 

Now THAT is an enlightening and interesting paragraph which taught me something. Why couldn't you have started with that instead of just insulting me and calling me stupid for two pages?

Birdman

 

Dave,
That is interesting. It kind of disagrees with what JCR has said about the octane as a result of the refinery process, but I have heard other gas station owners tell me that all the octanes come in the same truck.

Birdman

 

Birdman, you should have picked up what I said in post #3. dm_n_stuff understood exactly what I was saying. Dave Helms refering to his station is talking about the early 1980s. That powder could have been MMT or some other type of organometallic for octane. Practices of 20+ years ago are not applicable today.

 

Correct, this is why I stated "not applicable". I would bet there are variants to the story that ARE applicable today. Durning that era the wholesale sale of fuel was very corupt and there was an active black market in place. The tanker driver could end up with half a load at the end of a day of shorting each stop and overfilling the truck. These deliveries came at 2AM and went to the highest bidder and was a mixture of all brands and additives.
For those that say "I only use Shell", or name any other company, Want to bet on that? That was then, maybe things have changed now. I suspect they have as even back then the EPA was just starting to watch the manifest's looking for leaking tanks and found the first hints of the black market trading.
Personally I do not care which brand I use, I simply deal with "new facilities" that have new poly tanks under ground. I know what is in the old steel tanks at the corner stations. The one thing that hasnt changed is the condensation in the huge depot tanks. We still pay for a lot of water (and alcohol) when we fill up in the cold weather states.

Dave

 

An engineer from a major oil'fuel company spoke at this morning's sports car club meeting on E10 petrol (10% ethanol). All downsides it seems regarding E10, whih will be mandatory without exception here in 2011. Presently, the high-octane premiums are still ethanol-free.

It seems the higher octane advantage will be illusory as the oil companies will use less additives to boost octane, so the original rating will hold. Ultimately, he said the base fuel stock will determine fuel octane. He said no problem is expected if your car is newer than 1998. Older cars, epecially those with carburetors, may have problems. That means the Dino.

The problem will be with rubber parts, including hoses, which might not stand up to alcohol, and gasoline tanks, because of the corrosive and "cleaning" effects of alcohol.

1. Where can we source fuel hoses for the Dino? The engineer recommended teflon based (which I think will be unwieldy to use) and possibly neoprene. Where to buy?

2. Are there any parts in our Webers that will be affected? The accelerator pump?

3. Fuel pump?

3. Are there other parts that we need to worry about?

4. I don't want to take down the tanks to clean them, but plan only to install good filters before the pump. Any ideas?

Any suggestions or comments will be welcome.

Regards,

Andy
Manila

 

You are right with your assumptions.
I´m working for one of the biggest fuel system suppliers and there is a big difference in all the materials if the vehicle is used Ethanol or any alcohol.
I can double check tomorrow and post for you the needed specifications.
Regards Nicolai

 

Hello Andy,
the main problem is that the alcohol in E10 is washing out the softener from the existing materials and make them unflexible and increase the risk of leackage and breaking.
The official guideline from the fuel development is:
All elastomers in direct contact with Flexfuel (E10) should be FKM based components.
The most known FKM is VITON Type B.
All metals should be Biofuel resistant stainless steel.
I hope that helps a bit.
Regards Nicolai

 

E10 is agressive to metal and especially to aluminium, so for example the Dino 246 fuel tanks and the carbs would be destroyed very soon.
If in the future in Manila only E10 is available this would cause big problems
for most of the existing cars, so it is hard to believe...

 

I don't know how long E10 has been the standard in my area, but presumably I have been putting it into both my Dinos for awhile now. I have not experienced leaks or other mechanical problems. The only thing I have noticed is a drop in gas mileage. Considering the above reference to possible reaction with aluminum, such as in the fuel tanks, is the apocalypse nigh? Fred

 

This is simply not true and all you are doing is "scaremongering".

 

I think that was an own goal.
Because help was requested I spend some hours to ask experts in my company to get a serious feedback. Who of us is wrong and telling not the truth can be easily found out everywhere in the internet:

Links: http://www.biofuelshub.com/features/18-special/1074-is-e10-corrosive

Link:http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/environmental/E20_Position_Paper.doc

Link: http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/971648

 

An article that admits E10 is a problem only when water is introduced in the system. But since the article also claims that "older models have steel and lead-coated gas tanks and fuel systems", everything written is questionable. OEMs did not coat gasoline tanks with lead. The article has no sourcing or citations.

A paper discussing E20 fuel on boats. How is this applicable to automobiles that might use E10?

An article about pumps used to transport ethanol, not E10, E20, E85, but ethanol.

E10 fuel has its issues which were discussed on the first page, but for you to state that
"Dino 246 fuel tanks and the carbs would be destroyed very soon" is just foolish. And if this were the case, 308s would be on their way to "destroyed very soon" too.

 

Thank you for taking the time to check and post data, N. Schumacher. I appreciate it.

The oil company "tech" person who spoke at our club meeting said the biggest danger is failure of fuel lines, because of incompatibility with ethanol, as you stated. Because the problem doesn't seem to arise with modern , fiuel-injected cars, it seems we can use hoses for these newer cars in our Dinos. I also checked my Demon Tweeks catalog for fuel hoses, and a number now state that they can handle alcohol. So that's what I will do, change my fuel lines on the Dino and Stratos. ironically, my 1948 MGTC should be ok; it has solid copper lines and flexible teflon s/s braided lines to the carbs.

I worry about any rubber in the fuel pump abd carburettors, but since no one seems worried there on this board, I won't. By the way, ethanol might melt plastic floats, according to the tech. Again, the MG's ancient SU carbs, which is largely all metal and has brass floats, should be ok.

The problem therefore seems to be the fuel tanks, which will sufffer increased corrosion and release debris for the reasons you mentioned, N.

If I can get AvGas easily, that might be the solution.

I dread E15 and E20. With the current sugar shortage, I hope they stop at E10.

Thanks all for the advice.

Andy

 

@JCR:
Only two questions to you post:
1) Can you explain the difference between an aluminium boat fuel tank and the Dino
aluminium fuel tank?
2) Why have steel tanks corrosion problems if there is no water inside?


Hello Andy,
if you have problems to get the right fuel lines you can send me a PM and I can send you some. If there are the newer plastik floats in the DCNF you could replace them against the older original floats which were made out of brass. I hope you will find something to protect the aluminium fuel tanks.
Best Regadrs
Nicolai

 

Thank you for the offer, Nicolai. I will see what I can source commercially. If I get desperate, I will contact you!

I sometime get parts from Sparwald, whose shop is in Germany.

Andy

 

In case you have not read it, here is an article on ethanol in fuel from Moss Motors, which has been supplying parts for MGs and English vintage cars for many years.

http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/Ethanol.html

 

What ever happened to that hard-to-start bucket of bolts?

 

In the german Dino forum we have discussed another interesting proposal:
Someone recommends to ad oil for two stroke engine into the fuel in a ratio of 1:100, also if ethanol is used.
It should stopp the corrosion (carb floater, steel tanks, exhaust), acts like grease at the moving parts like carb axel/bearings, it even seems to help the valves when closing in their seats like the old led, it increases the octane and avoids knocking, and what helps in a two stroke engine between piston and cylinder even at higher revolutions can´t be bad at the same parts in a four stroke engine. It helps also to clean, if you ever have opened a two stroke engine which used foll synthetic oil it looks like new inside no remaining charcoal etc.
I heard that it is popular in the Alfa Montreal, Abarth and older Ferrari Scene ?
Regards
Nicolai