Supercharged QV (take 3)-or is it a turbo?

From my conversations with Berlinetta is appears that they make add-on body panels. In other words, you glue their trunk lid to the existing metal trunk ld to make it look like a GTO. Same with their GTO style fenders.

 

I wondered how it was only 4lb....I figured at least 5 or 6lb and certainly no more than 10lb for a nice foam core glass deck lid

 

That's almost axactly what I'm thinking. I really don't NEED more low end power than I already have and fitting under a stock hood and the IC in the intake are all good things....which is way I beat my head so hard yesterday trying to figureout some way to do all that.

I'm still waiting on feedback from Vic, but the laminova intake should flow about as well as anything that can be made and probably would look about the best. I'd like the runners 2-3 inches longer, but honestly that would only add about 20hp, which isn't much in the scheme of things I suppose. If I go forward with it, I'll put a mock up on the flow bench and see how tall the runners can be in the plenum without hurting flow.... my guess is they're close the way I sketched them, but data is always better than guesses.

 

I talked to a specialist I know about making a CF 308 engine cover. He's interested in doing it and thinks he can do it at a reasonable price but he's not that familiar with the 308 beyond the Magnum PI aspect. He's going to attempt to inspect a 308 engine cover closer this week-end so he's a little better informed.

I talked to him about fiberglass but he told me if he uses CF for strength and not for looks (in other words a part you should paint to match your car) it may not be that expensive. He can also make the lids with reinforcements at the hinge areas or make it clip-on style for a really light part.

I also talked to him about a CF front deck lid with a racing style radiator air outlet duct incorperated into it which is something I'm also very interested in. I hate to cut up the stock deck lid. I'd rather preserve it and mount a substitute. The stock aluminum lid is not that heavy, weight still could be saved with a CF part, but more importantly the early cars have a haphazard way of getting rid of hot radiator air with no opening in the front lid and the later cars' grilles in there are still minimal if you're going to be making big horse power. It would look really bad-ass too!

 

CF has become stupid expensive due to aerospace contracts and the supliers not upping production. so if your contact has stock on hand he's lucky!

CF is used in applications that need structural bonding to alloys, if not then kevlar can be used. however for a deck lid i'd stick to CF.

one thing great about the mondi is the giant vent sitting over the radiator, lately due to the colder temps i can not get the water over 145* and the oil stays right at the 1/4 mark and will dip to dead cold when cruising for extend periods. the ambient air the other day was about 40*. great for boost but sucks becouse i can't get the temps up, conversly come summer it's 110*+

 

Guys, don’t trust the rumors, here are the numbers. The most common glass is E-glass, and it’s about 75% the strength of CF. That means to make the 2 panels exactly the same strength in tension, the E-glass panel would need 1/3 thicker than the CF panel. In most cases though the difference in more like 10% because most of the time the actual loads come from bending, not pure tension and bending strength is proportional to the thickness cubed, so making the panel a little thicker, makes it a lot stronger. A panel made from S-glass is actually stronger than an equal thickness panel from CF, but more flexible (good or bad depends on the application).

Which composite is right really depends on the application and the geometry. If the panel must be thin and stiff, CF is the best choice. It’s also the lightest weight with a density of .058 lb/in^3 vs .072 lb/in^3 for E-glass. If thickness doesn’t really matter an S-glass panel using a foam or honey comb core can be made the strongest, stiffest and lightest.

Kevlar adds impact strenght if use properly, but is not really suitable as the primary material. The reason is that kevlar is a polymer and as such is subject to creep. That means that over time, the deck lid would sag, which looks just awful.

In the case of the deck lid, it just comes down to money. E-glass is about 1/10th the price of CF, s-glass about 1/8th. So if I made the lid in my basement, it would cost me 10 times more money to make it 10% lighter and since it’s not a race car, CF is not a good return on investment IMO. If I were to buy the panel the answer is a little different. Say the labor to make the panel is fixed at $1000. The material for glass is $100, and then $1000 for CF. A glass panel is then $1100 vs, $2000 for CF, so twice the price to save 10% on weight. I would think about that….for about 5 minutes and order the glass panel because 2 or 3 lb is not worth $900 to me.

Another F-chatter is in need of a deck lid and I’m very seriously thinking of going in 1/2s with him to build a mold and make a couple light deck lids. I’m pretty busy…..but I really want a light deck lid…..
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Interesting. Way-back-when, when I raced formula cars I used to pull a mold off the nose and make at least one spare, since noses never lasted long. I just used fiberglass cloth & mat and resin from the local boat store. Later I played with polyester cloth and epoxy resin but I wasn't aware of S-glass and E-glass. What exactly is the difference?

Anyway, I'll ask my CF guy about using S-glass on Monday. I could make a mold and lay up an engine cover in fiberglass too but the whole process is smelly, itchy, messy, and very time consuming. If I can get it done at a reasonable price by a professional I'd rather do that. And if the CF, which I'm really not set up for doing myself, is affordable, I'll do that.

 

I'll ask about CF supply on Monday.

Yeah, I had trouble with coolant temps that wouldn't come up in my 77 308GTB too but wait untill July and August! What I'm mostly concerned about though is all that hot air not exiting neatly. Just letting it blow into the wheel-wells and then going under the car should cause some lift you would think. I know this thread is about supercharging but making more power makes more heat.

Also, removing weight is as good as adding power. As Collin Chapman said "add lightness".

 

I'm not sure the exact difference, slightly different chemically is all I know. My project is out of control cost wise, so hiring a professional is out of the question. My finish work honestly isn't as good as a professional body guys would be, I'm just not careful enough...but I think I can engineer and build a pretty good strucure for it that will make it strong and light.

I'm thinking there should be a way to use hinges for everyday, but pull a couple pins and just pop it off...I'll need to think about that a bit.

 

I do know that standard fiberglass, is just glass, like window glass, spun into treads like cotton candy. The reason it itches is because the glass thread breaks off into little glass splinters that get stuck in your skin. It gets it's strength from being able to rely on it's tensile streghth once it's in the resin matrix. Maybe S-glass has holow thread to make it lighter or something like that?

I'll know more about cost soon.

If it's light enough I would be happy to lift the lid off and lie it in the grass like on race cars. I wouldn't care about hinges in that case.

 

I played around a little more with my favorite intake version. I didn’t like that I was using 6 IC tubes, but dividing the flow. I’m pretty sure I can make enough room to allow flow across the top from one side to the other by not using a blower mounting plate/adapter, but accessing the blower mounting bolts though an access plate on the top of the intake. I’m thinking this is the one to build.
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is there any difference if the round chambers on top of the down tubes are smaller, like less drop in air pressure or better flow or something like that ???

 

I have been pondering a smaller chamber. As I understand it, long runners and a small chamber for bottom end, short runners with a big chamber for top end.

My runners are relatively short, so I thought a big chamber to match. I was also thinking that generaly a runner flows best when it's just open on top, so a bigger plenum tends to be better for flow...but they do look a bit big.

I drew them as 4" sch 10 pipe, which is 4.5" OD, 4.25" ID and seems about the same size as what ferrari uses on the 360. If I go down to down to 3" it looks a small and seems to want the runners flush with bottom becasue the space to the sides looks too tight to do any good otherwise.....I don't know. Flowing in from the end like the 360 does, bigger is always better for flow, but I am flowing in the whole length of the side so smaller may be just fine.......

I think I'm going to mock it up with the big tubes, put it on the flow bench, and see how it flows. I may make a small tube to try too depending on time.

 

thanks for the answer!
good luck
ROLO

 

I just talked to my Carbon Fiber guy. Apparently he was away for a few days. He hasn't been able to look at a 308 rear lid yet (way way out in the sticks) so I'm sending him some photos and dimensions tonight.

 

wil, see if he's using pre-preg CF or not. if not then the CF is going to be heavy due to varying resin thicknes and in the end not worth the cost.

the pre impregnated CF just needs heat&vacumm but can be very tricky to work with. i'm sure he knows this, just throwing it out there.

 

You don't need pre-preg to get the resin weight right, a scale works fine. You just weigh the mat and mix the resin to whatever weight % you want, perfect every time. You do have to at least try to paint/roll the resin on even, but it's not that hard and the resin will flow an even a bit under the pressure of the vacuum bag.

 

Wil,
Do you have a source in the US for the laminova IC cores?

 

Mark, Laminova is an Opcon brand. Opcon has an office in Detroit now. Call 269-267-3559 and speak to Debra.

If you want to speak to a fellow engineer, call Robert at Opcon in Sweden. He's a Lysholm project manager and speaks good English. If he can't answer your questions he can pass you onto someone who can, I'm sure.
Call Robert @ 46(0)709 730 534. I think you dial 011 and then the phone number without the zero, I don't remember. In this day and age you would think international calling would be simpler but it's not.

You may also want to check out a US company called Pro ECM (proecm.com). I've never dealt with them but they build intercooler assemblies using the Laminova cores. The phone # there is 719-338-5890.

 

Thanks Wil

 

With the new set-up design/construction under way, Lana says the old system has to go.

If you've been wishing for supercharger set-up for you're 308 QV or 328, now's a good time to shop

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270075030372

 

Drat, if I could scrape up the $$$ I'd go for it(sigh)...

 

The old supercharger will soon be off to it's new home, so Lana says I can now continue the project.

Here’s where the project stands.

The intercooler cores arrive today
http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15

Here’s the one I chose…the 6 I chose is more accurate I guess since there will be 6 of them in the new intake

http://www.laminova-online.se/Upload/8813794.PDF


With the head work I’m doing, I pretty sure the boost will drop to about 10-11 psi across the board if I keep the same blower and the same ratio drive. I still want at least 15 psi, but the blower was already spinning right to it’s redline, so….it’s time for a bigger blower. Lysholm doesn’t have anything bigger that will fit inside the manifold like the current one does. Whipple now sells copies of the lysholm stuff, so nothing bigger that will fit. Opcon makes a 2.4 liter now, better, but still not there. Kenne Bell now sells copies of the Opcon, but just came out with a 2.6L and 2.8L that are basically the same width and height as my old lysholm, so we have a Winner!

I’m still a little uncertain how the boost will work out with the heads fixed and a bit unsure how much I can reduce the blow-down the engine has by retiming the cams. I do know the engine will be flowing about 33% more air when I put it back together so I’m thinking that adding 30% to the blower is a pretty safe bet that I will be able to set-up for the boost I want. The 2.6 is 13% bigger and has a redline of 18000, giving it a flow potential about 35% more than the 2.3L I had., so it should work spinning right to redline. The 2.8 is 22% bigger and also has a redline of 18000, giving it a flow potential about 46% more than the 2.3L. I’m thinking the 2.8 is the way to go so I don’t need to be planning to run it right to redline.

Kenne Bell doesn’t really sell blowers out of the kits, but they do sell replacement parts and upgrade kits. It looks like the upgrade kit for a ’03-’04 Corbra will do nicely. They also now offer an “H” version of the blowers. The H for High boost. Apparently it’s is more efficient at higher boost, over 14-15psi you gain hp, but below that the standard unit performs better, I’ll most likely order the H version. They don’t have a compressor map that they will share, so I can’t compare it to any other blower…but since it’s the only one that will fit and pump enough air, I guess it would win by default anyway.

http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/cobra03/cobra03_28L.htm

The down side (you knew there was one) is the price...it's $3650 ($3350 fo rth 2.6L) with my choice of starndard or H and my choice of pulley. A lysholm, whipple or autorotor are all about $2000-$2400. I guess it falls under the broad "you get what you pay for" heading since the cheaper units can't match the flow specs in a similar size package.....not that I really NEED this much hp

 

I'm a little disapointed with the intercooler cores that showed up today. The fins seem a bit random in height, whcih is going to make a poor seal in the manifold, lets air past un-cooled. I'll have to give a call in the morning to find out if it's normal of the cores are defective. If it's normal, I'll probably urn the OD down a bit. The tubing I bought to fit them in is about .062" undersize, I planned to bore it to size for a good fit...but I guess I can fit the cores to the tubes. We'll see what Debbie has to say tomorrow.

Wil, how did your cores look?