308 starter removal.. help

Everytime I go to cold start my 76 308 the starter just clicks. After about 20 attempts it usually fires. So I hopped in under and noticed a relay attached to the side of it and also that the solenoid (just the solenoid) looked brand new.
So.... Im looking for advice on where to go now. .. I have the starter disconnected, all the heat shields off, the lower oil cooler hose off and I still cant get the starter out. . its stuck between the engine mount and what looks like a spring loaded clutch adjuster!
Can anyone help me get the cursed thing out. Oh and a tag fell off the starter saying it was manufactured in 1994, so im pretty sure it wasnt replaced when the new solenoid was put on, as I have an invoice for that from May.

 

I won't be much help as I haven't removed one yet, but I remember being told that the starter had to be pushed back, flipped around & then brought out. Hope that makes sense.
Bill

 

Maybe just remove the engine mount first?

Seamus

 

DQ Battery, wiring to solenoid remove...

Remove the left front motor mount: 4 nuts, one through bolt. (bottom nuts on block easy, top nuts difficult)

Remove the starter bolts (3) and if it's a BOSCH unit, remove the "tail plate."

Move the starter toward the right of the car, lift the nose bushing end up toward the cyl head, slide the tail end toward the left of the car (swap ends).

Rotate the starter until if will fit through the space left by removing the LF motor mount, tail end first. Been in there on a few 308's including my own.

Dirty, yuk, scraped knuckles...good luck! PeterB.

 

When it warms up, and dries out lets meet for a drive. It might have been me that told you of the starter motor removal horror when I took you for a ride in my 308...BTW, you should see my motor bay now after the conversion to the Euro exhaust/emissions!

 

Thanks guys, i hopped back under this evening and could only conclude that the engine mount has to come out. Then I read your replies... cheers.

 

How did it go? Did ya get the beast out? This was my first mechanical task with my 308, before F-chat... .It was less than fun.

 

Try here

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128192&highlight=mondial+starter

 

Did you try jumping a wire directly from the battery to the starter solenoid? Did you confirm the battery is good?

Seems to me you've already decided the starter is bad without really investigating it. This can lead to a lot of pointless struggle and needless expense.

Ken

 

Battery is fully charged, the lights dim when i turn the key and the solenoid clicks. So the starter is getting full power, its just not engaging.
Havent had a chance to go any further... damn real work is getting in the way !!

 

Lights dim? How much? If they almost go out I'd suspect battery or connections not the solenoid or starter.
Bill

 

Hello,
My 78 308GTS did the same thing a month ago. Just out of the blue it wouldn't start. The battery checked out good when I took it in but the day before the starter just whirrrrrrrred perfectly. I just couldn't believe it was a bad starter. It turned out I needed a battery with more "Cold Cranking Amps". The one that was in it just didn't have enough natural oomph. Make sure you have a battery with the required CCA's!

But, if getting the starter out is anything like getting one out of a Lancia Scorpion, your best bet is to turn the car upside down and SHAKE IT really hard....

 

They just dim ever so slightly. More often than not the car will fire after about 20 attempts, So the battery is plenty pwerful. What I have to do is keep turning it off and turning it on and if i'm lucky it will fire. Its a pita when I get 20 clicks in a row

 

It looks like its the solenoid. When I hard wire the starter (its now out) it just clicks, but if I directly operate it (bypassing the solenoid) it spins too. I see its a Fiat starter, so Im trying to find out what its off!
Thanks for the help.

 

Why are you guys removing the motor mount? I have two 77 308's and have pulled starters from both and never removed a motor mount. Its hard to do laying on your back, but if you roll it around and turn it the right way it will come out through the frame opening. I forgot the dry sumps had that oil line on the front of the motor, that makes it a bit more fun I recon.

 

You do know that the key switch is only good for many twists?

 

What do you mean...?

 

Things have a certain life time, or life expectancy. TV tubes are rated in hours, like a light bulb. Door handles, latches, toggle switches, even the leather seats, everything has a life limit. In the case of the ignition key switch, its basically unrepairable. I dont know how many twists the switch is good for, but it is finite and they do fail. When it fails, you will find either a used one, or something else. The OEM is now NOS. I did see that Eurospares has one that replaces it for 350 pounds IIRC, so about $700 US. But the key looks all wrong.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about the problem that many Mondials have with the starter not wanting to turn over. Rarely is it the starter itself. What you need to do is trace down your system, starting at the battery. I had a similar problem with my old '84 Mondial QV when I got it and discovered that several things contributed to the problem.

First, go to the battery. Check the negative terminal and trace the negative cable to the point where it attaches to the frame. The Mondis have a cut-off switch on the negative side that is notorious for corroding. If you have a cut-off switch or mechanism between the negative terminal and the frame, remove it. If the negative cable is old, replace it (they corrode internally, increasing resistance). Clean the mounting location, bolt, washer, etc. (better to replace with new) to be sure you have a good ground from the battery to the frame.

Next, trace the heavy power line that runs from the battery to the starter. IIRC, there is a connector in the line that can corrode. If so, clean it and make sure you have a good solid contact.

Check the grounding straps to the engine. These almost never get changed. Buy new ones, clean the mounting points well, and make sure you have good ground to the frame.

Clean all the terminals on the starter and solinoid, make sure you have good contact on all. If there is a separate ground strap for the starter, be sure it is clean and making good contact. Check all the wires. Sometimes they are corroded internally and increase resistance, causing problems. Check the relays and fuses, make sure all connections in the circuit are good.

Don't trust that the solinoid is good. They are inexpensive, so just replace it and make sure it is wired up correctly and securely.

More times than not, in my experience, the problem with starters on old cars is in the wiring or the solenoid, not the starters themselves. And don't discount the battery not having enough cold cranking amps. A battery may test okay at the shop, but just not be delivering enough juice to turn the starter over. You've already confirmed that when the starter gets juice, it spins, so it is likely not the brushes (brushes are an issue if the starter won't turn, but then spins when you tap it).

 

On my 1981 308 GTSI, after around 20 normal starts, the starter would whirll and not engage the fly-wheel. During my 30K service, I had the starter completely overhauled with new parts. Again after around 15 to 20 starts the starter would Whirll and not engage. The starter went back to the overhaul shop and checked again and a new solenoid was installed and again the same problem. Turned out to be the battery was low on cranking amps. Installed a new battery and have not had the problem since.

Jeff

 

One thing I learned rather late in life from a starter and alternator repair guy I used to know. The solenoid grounds partly through the starter via the brushes. There are two coil windings in the solenoid, one to draw it in, one to hold it. The pull in coil grounds through the motor brushes and windings. This requires the starter brushes make good contact.

On my 308's, there are two webbed ground straps from the gearbox to the frame. Yet one car had only one, with the other badly torn. The second car had both hanging disconnected. Yet they both would start. They simply found a ground through another path, gearbox shift lever, exhaust, throttle cable, clutch cable.... make sure you have both ground straps connected. Make sure also that the ground at the battery is adequate. All grounds should be uninsulated flat web straps BTW.

In all my years, and in any book, begin with the battery, then check connections, then check the starter. Just remember though, that just because Joe rebuilt it, does not mean he used the best parts. There are cheap asian electrical parts that would be better on the bottom of the ocean than on a car. Make sure the rebuilder is reputable and uses the better parts.

 

Sent it to the repair shoip that does good work on starters. Solenoid was burnt out.
Fitted new one.

 

I have to believe that the switch is a Fiat part as well. That would be a treasure find if we could figure out which one.