New Mondial Owner - Need Some Help Please

Hi guys! I just picked up a 1989 Mondial T cab with a few known problems.

We played around with the car until 5 am Friday morning. We changed the oil, filled up the tires, filled it up with gas, added new anti-freeze, put a new battery in it, and checked all the fluids.

From a cosmetic standpoint, the car is a 9. It is perfect outside and inside. Mechanically, we found a few issues. The first one we knew about and the other two appear to be simple. The engine runs strong. SOUNDS GREAT! But here is what needs to be repaired, any help would be greatly appreciated. The car has 16k miles on it.

1. The radiator fans do not turn on and the car starts to run a little hot. We added a gallon of new anti-freeze. But noticed that after 30 mins or so of idling that the car began to get a little hot. We also noticed that the fans are not working. We checked the fuses and they looked to be ok. Any other known problems with the fans turning on?

2. Accelerator pedal doesnt do anything. The pedal doesnt appear to be connected to any kind of spring or cable. It has a solid screw behind it to keep it from traveling any further forward. But there is no throttle mechanism. What is missing? Btw, the engine revs beautifully from the engine compartment. Where is the cable supposed to connect to the pedal and where does it come from?

3. The car will not go in gear, any gear. The clutch pedal is full and with good pressure. The brake reservoir is full. The car just will not go into gear. I can physically put the shifter into any gear without any grinding or anything but none of the gears engage. It just acts like it is still in neutral. Any ideas? Can anyone provide a guide on how to take apart the clutch so it can be diagnosed?

Once again, thank you all so much in advance! I really appreciate you guys helping us. I promise i wont keep asking for advice over and over and i do use the search button before i ask! lol!!!

Thanks.

Jason

 

On the fans check the temp switch, on the throttle sounds like you have a broken/missing cable and on the trans the shift linkage is broken or damaged some where. Sorry this sounds simple but without knowing more we cannot give excact diagnosis.
Check out www.ferraripubs.com, they have a workshop manual available for your car and this will help you with DIY repairs.
Good luck

 

THANKS!

i will get the workshop manual to help with the repairs. But in the meantime,

1. where is the temp switch for the fans?

2. where does the throttle cable supposed to hook onto the pedal? bottom of the pedal? does it come out of the floor? or up high from the dash?

3. how do i check to find out if and where the shift linkage is broken?


Would pictures help? let me know what pics you want me to take and i will post them up.

And what else do you need to know to further diagnose?

THANKS!!!!

Jason

 

Let's start with no.2. Does this diagram explain it?

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/033/Large/033_047.gif


I believe the thermal switch is no. 10 in this pic:

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/033/Large/033_019.gif

The gear linkage is a bit more of a concern. does it 'feel' like it is going into gear or is the lever loose??

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/033/Large/033_028.gif

It's pretty easy to get at the clutch. You have to remove the exhaust box (maybe bumper first) then pull off the housing that holds the flywheel/clutch. Do not remove the release bearing unless you have to. Do a search for '348 clutch' - it's the same as the T and will yield more hits.

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/033/Large/033_021A.gif

Good luck.

 

THANKS CHRIS! Your post is a big, big help! Let me begin by saying I am an attorney/sports agent and not a mechanic. But my dad is a street rodder from way back. He has built several engines. I am trying to gather as much info as possible so i can relay it to him and then i will do my best to help! lol!

1. the diagram re the gas pedal is very helpful. Correct me if i am wrong but the gas pedal and throttle cable is # 31 and the brake pedal is # 4...? And can you explain how the throttle mechanism actually works from the bottom like that? It will help in me in looking at it and trying to figure out how it is supposed to work and what is wrong with it.

2. i will check the thermal switch. no problem.

3. it feels like it is going into gear. the lever is not loose. it feels like it is in 1st or 2nd or any other gear but the car doesnt go anywhere. the reverse lights come on when put in reverse. the lever physically goes into gear like normal but the car acts and feels like it is still in neutral. its like its disconnected or something. the clutch pedal has full pressure. any ideas?

i will do a search for the 348 clutch and see what else i can find. thanks again Chris.

 

Sounds like your selector forks are not adjusted properly or have come loose...I have no experience with the Mondial though....maybe visually confirm clutch lever is moving.

When you find the thermo switch you can jumper it with a wire to simulate it closing, that may bring the fans on....

Did this car come from Austin? Did you find Moorespeed?

 

BT:

The car came from Dallas. Its a project car for me and my dad to work on together. We had a great time the other night working on it and i look forward to figuring all this stuff out with him and you guys! lol! if we find anything that is beyond what we can do, the car will simply go to morespeed and get fixed. but right now, i am looking forward to the challenge and bonding with my dad.

it has 16k miles on it and i need to find out from the previous owner if it had the 15k mile service. he was pretty meticulous in his care for the car so i think it probably has had it. but if not, it will be going to morespeed for the service.

the car is a beautiful example of a red on tan mondial t cab. it looks to be a perfect convertible to cruise around in the Hill Country!

And the new supercharger options look pretty appealing....

 

Glad to be of help.

1. 31 is a rod that twists with the pedal movement - this action is transferred to a crank (part 45) which pulls the cable (part 53/54). Try pulling the cable at the end it connects to the throttle linkage - if the cable is broken internally it may keep coming.. You will have to have a dig around.

2. If after first trying Bubba's suggestion still have no fans check the fuse and relay - I'm guessing the Mondial has a relay like a 348 but I don't know where it will be on your car.


3. The reverse light switch is at the 'stick' end so it will come on regardless. The gear lever on a 348/T is pretty stiff (harder than a normal car) does it go really easily into every gate even with the engine off/clutch released?? If so I would guess at a cable linkage/problem. If the selectors are actually moving it could be more serious and the next step for me would to be to look in the clutch/flywheel housing.

 

quick update:

the throttle is fixed. the cable had come off the throttle pulley back on the engine. it was an easy fix!

we are working on the fans now. we checked both fans and they are getting power. how can i bridge the fans to see if the thermal switch is the problem? do i cut into the fan wires? or do i unplug the thermal switch and wire directly into the thermal switch wire?

and no chris the lever is not loose and it does not go easy into any of the gears. it feels and acts like (from the driver's compartment) like everything is working fine. my guess is the clutch plates inside the clutch are gone. would that cause it to act the way it is?

your help is appreciated!

Jason

 

If your fans are truly getting power then they are spinning (it would be odd to have 2 failed fan motors). Likewise, if they are getting power then your thermo switch isn't the problem. All that the switch can do is signal to send power to the fans. If they have power, then the thermo switch did its job.

The fans have plastic disconnect connections. You can put a voltmeter to those connections to confirm that power is reaching the fans...it likely is not reaching them.

If power isn't reaching the fans, then you can bridge the fan relays to force them on (typically pins 30 and 87) or at least force power to them. If they spin when you bridge a relay, then the problem might be a failed thermo switch.

===============

As for your clutch, it may need to be bled several times while the rear end is jacked up over 20 inches higher than normal. Don't use a power bleeder, instead do a 2 man manual clutch bleed with one man at the bleed screw on the clutch pumpkin and the other slowly pumping the clutch pedal.

Air in the clutch throwout bearing will prevent you from going into gear.

See also the very similar setup in the 348 at www.the348.com/tech/348.html

 

Jason is saying that it goes into gear no problem but there is no final drive. With air in the clutch I reckon it would crunch and grind.

I suggest:

Lift the rear and support securely. Start the engine and try to get a gear without the clutch. Does it go in easily or is there a clunk? Do the wheels turn at all?
I'm guessing here but I reckon if the gears engage silently (assuming they are actually being enagaged internally) with clutch released then either the clutch is very bad/in pieces or the input shaft is sheared.

I suppose it is possible that the cluch is completely worn but I would still expect enough drag to turn the wheels in the air. You will need to have a look:

1. Remove the rear silencer (heavy). If you have the old two-box system the rear bumper will probably have to come off too.

2. Remove the perforated plate from the bottom of the cover.

3. Remove the nut that secures the bleed pipe to the side of the cover and move the bracket out of the way.

4. Back off all the rest of the nuts from the outside of the cover by 3mm and press the clutch to free the housing (makes getting it off easier). Support the starter with a bit of wood and remove all the outer bolts/nuts. DO NOT touch the 4 smaller bolts in the middle of the cover.

5. Pull off the clutch housing. With care - its heavy. Take a look inside. You probably have the twin plate clutch so if you do pull it apart make a careful note of the assembly order.

 

we put a voltmeter on the two wires going into the right-hand fan and both wires had power. could it be the alternator?

 

i put the car in gear this morning to see if i could push it like it is in neutral and it is more difficult to push. it rolls pretty freely when in neutral but then acts like the e-brake is on when its in 1st or Reverse. And then i sat in the car and revved the engine to about 2500 rpms while the car was in 1st and it began to roll very slowly forward. i did the same thing with it in Reverse and it rolled very slowly backward.


No grinding, no clunking, just nice smooth (for a Mondial) shifts into each gear.


So what does that mean? LOL!

THANKS GUYS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!

 

That sounds like a slipping or worn clutch plate..

I'd say your fan motors failed one at a time and are both shot now.

Take them out and put 12V directly to them off a battery to be sure. Mine when they failed would still work if you wiggled the wires, hard to do that and drive though.....

Not sure if you can find someone to rewind them as we do on the old cars, but try...Austin has TECH man!

 

Many have replaced OEM fans with Hayden from Pep Boys, but that's not the Cowboy Way!

My 308GTB fans were matched to a Jag XKE V12, which my BMW/Mercedes guys ordered for me.......see how that works????

Not cheap, still, but they matched EXACTLY to the OEM.....

Hang in there!

Clutch will be easier than readjusting the shift linkage IMO.......

 

I drove a clutch slipping once to the point where when it finally made it to the shop, an air hose would stop the car!

I think you are almost there.....for future knowledge, if you rush in when it first slips it can be readjusted for additional life......

 

Thanks BT! I appreciate all of your responses. I will follow up on your advice.

Jason

 

I wanted to start by saying congratulations, I wish you well in your Ferraridom.

However, by the sounds of the way this thread began, you bought a car not running with known problems?

If so, you might be lucky the car wont drive. If you have no verifiable (I mean reputable shop records) knowledge of recent engine service (read timing belts) you should just stop trying to make it drive and go in deep and get the service out of the way. You can then take care of the other issues while the car is down for maintenence. I know your probably itching to drive it, but I can guarantee that once you pull the cam covers and check valve clearnces and valve timing, etc, you will find other issues. And in so doing you will have a car you can be very confident with, as well as an engine compartment Enzo would be proud of.

Good luck!

 

thanks Art. I appreciate your response. I bought the car with the known problems from a very, very good friend who is meticulous about his cars. The clutch issue happened 6 years ago and my friend decided to store the car until he was ready to fix it as he was focused on other car projects at the time. I was told by him at the time that all major services had been done up until the clutch issue. I have now received those records and he was correct.

other than the clutch and the fans, the car appears to be perfect mechanically and cosmetically. this wasnt just some blind purchase of an unknown car from an unknown person. I had ridden in this car several times back in the mid to late 90s before the clutch issue occurred in 2000.

as soon as the clutch and fan issue is resolved, i will most likely take it to morespeed here in austin and have it inspected and serviced to make sure there are no other hidden issues.

but thanks for the almost congratulations! lol! this is shaping up to be a fun and rewarding adventure. and its one i went into with my eyes wide open.

Jason

 

Don't let your first Ferrari be a painful experience.

Six years sitting, stop, it's way past time for engine out 30k service and then some. Clutch can be done easily at the same time. The belts are way over due and you need to make sure the tensioners are not dragging. The car needs a complete professional inspection and assessment.

We are currently rescuing an abandoned 83 308QV that has only 9000 miles that has been sitting for only four years and its bad. Cosmetically after we get the dirt off, it is a 9 too. Mechanically....not even close. What I'm seeing on this car that was in a climate controlled garage you can expect too: cracking rubber, rotten gas, gummed up injectors, rusty cam belt tensioners and tensioner bearings, faulty electrical connections, etc, etc.

PM me if you like or contact me at our shop tomorrow 474-7223

David

 

I second the full major engine out service. Cars sitting that long deteriorate faster than ever. Ferrari recommends cam belt replacement on ALL cars with belt driven cams at three years, and your twice past that. If it strips a belt you will be up the Maranello river without a paddle.

 

let me clarify when I say it has been sitting, I mean it hasn't been driven in 6 years but the car was started 2 or 3 times a month every month for the last 6 years to keep everything fresh and working. gas was run through the car and new gas put in each month. the oil has also been changed twice a year and everything was kept lubricated.

regardless, I will give you guys a call at morespeed to discuss.

thanks for all your help!

Jason

.

 

Well, were just trying to save you from an expensive catastrophy that has been shared by many. It cost Spirot over $6000 in parts fixing his himself, so its certainly not a cheap fix. There have been some that have ran these cars a long ways on the belts, and some who didnt get very far at all. It seems to come down to use vs time. The more its used, it appears the longer the clock will tick. But something strange happens to machines, or Ferrari timing belts, when they sit for extended periods, things deteriorate rapidly. These belts can fail without warning, and without any obvious signs of deterioration prior to failure. When Ferrari said 5 years, then three, that was a time factor, not a mileage factor. And the evidence seems to support lack of mileage as requiring a more aggressive belt replacement interval. Your car is now running well past the clock. I think even the naysayers who want to run these cars out as far as possible would agree with this line of reason.

 

Paul says "These belts can fail without warning, and without any obvious signs of deterioration prior to failure.

At the risk of continuing this largely semantic, non data-driven discussion, I disagree, based only on my personal observation, starting with timing belts on the first production application, the Glas 1700 GT (pre-BMW) and being intimately familiar with the bete-noir of automotive timing belt applications, the venerable Fiat twin-cam for nearly three decades.

These belts do give warning, by "shedding" portions and silt-like black rubber debris on the inside of the timing belt covers, by cracking or having uneven straitions on the smooth back surface of the belt, by exhibiting cracking at the base of the rubber teeth where they meet the fiberglass cord and by being contaminated by engine oil or coolant. They also fail by having people remove protective covers because they can't be bothered to put them back on and having debris and (frozen) water lodge between the drive sprocket teeth and the belt. They also fail due to timing belt tensioner and idler devices (including the water pump on the 348 and Mondial t) being improperly set, wearing out or seizing due to rust and corrosion.

My point is, no "lightning bolt" comes out of the sky and makes these things suddenly fail. Like a good doctor, a good tech can observe several tell-tales that predilect imminent failure!

I remember when I started on Fiat twin cams and the watchword was, if you loosen the belt for any reason, replace it. Cheap insurance.

YMMV, I've been telling my customers for years, especially on the older cars, four to six years is the maximum intercal, regardless of mileage. Also, if you don't know when the last time it was replaced, do it now!

-Peter (still glad to wade into the lake, even if it's on fire <grin>)

 

How many Ferrari cam belts have you personally seen fail?

Its not pretty. And it is not pretty watching a grown man explain to his wife why he's throwing down hard earned cash cause he didn't listen.