site down info

Thanks for getting the site back up quickly! My finger was getting sore clicking 'reload' endlessly

 

WOW, kind of sad how so many of us rely on Fchat.

I need my dose daily!!!

Thanks Rob.

 

First; dont take the following as an attack. Cool?

Honestly ....i'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Perhaps it's a matter of perception. From my POV: It appears that you're saying that you're trying to hide who you really are. Ie; Being deceptive.

In the good ole days <chuckle> of BBS' and 1200 baud modems; folks didn't use aliases. Nor did they try to hide their identities. Not surprisingly (IMHO) the kind of crud that goes on today simply *didn't* happen back then.

Heated debates? You betcha .... but insults, threats and other attempts to intimidate would *not* have been tolerated. But the point is moot: I repeat .... It just didn't happen.

You assume incorrectly. RAllen = WYSIWYG. And there are many others like myself hereabouts.

FYI: I also followed the herd and used an alias and an Internet "persona." But I did so not to hide who I was (ie; to deceive) and my, so called, "private" info has always been readily available for anyone willing to do a google search. I even post(ed) where and when i'll be often enuff.

My Net friend, I believe you're part of the problem. By spreading FUD you enable the posers, losers, trolls, etc, to continue to spread lies, and harrass others on-line.

The problem IS anonymity (or the perception thereof .... you'd be surprised, maybe?, how easy it can be to trace folks)!

Assorted idjiots would NOT behave as they do on the Net if their "private" info was readily available. Folks would be far more polite and the Net would be a far kinder, gentler and much more pleasant place.

Assuming it's public info and assuming that it's *true & correct* .... why would you NOT disclose said info in the proper context?

Please don't *simply* say, "because it might hurt someone in some manner." Details please.

Why?

E.g. How about a map w/directions to my humble abode? It's been posted .... by me. My business and cell phone numbers and of course, full name? Yes, you guessed right .... posted.

Age, sex, marital status, biz, etc, .... all posted. Should I live in fear? Fear of what? Whom?

Sure there is some risk in being open and honest on the Net. But the rewards are great and the risk ... LOW!

Disclaimer: Of course, some info should be kept private.

The problem: The perception of anonymity empowers assorted numskulls into ill behaviour which negatively impacts us all.

The solution: Post a person's full name address and other relevant public info in full. For all to see.

The benefits: Discussions similar to what one would expect in personal correspondence. IOW; perhaps heated but devoid of insults, threats, etc. I guarantee (w/the obvious exception of nujobs, etc) MOST folks would chose their words carefully knowing that we know WHO they are and that the Net has an INFINITE memory.

The risks: Psycho Net Surfers will come to your home and slaughter your family? Naaahh, there are no *serious* risks .... assuming you're not a .... pick whichever apply:

1) "Nutjob." We know at least one on this site. Don't we? <lol>
2) Poser. How many of those have we seen? Right, Doc? <chuckle>
3) Troll. They come and go. ;-)
4) Scammer. Most of those *don't* hide their identities. Interesting? Hmmm.
5) Wannabe. Usually harmless. But annoying, right?
6) Shills. Here's a group that demands anonymity. <LOL>

In closing; consider one of our celebarated members: Napolis!

Now, if I were to point to ONE member who is at risk of being "harmed" by making his identity, etc, known on the Net .... what better example could I make? <chuckle>

Golly, gee whiz .... he hides NOTHING! Duh!

And I don't think he's "scared senseless."

I could also point to one "Scammer" who's info has been posted and he *should* be "scared senseless." But he's on the way to the slammer .... sooner or later anyway.

Thx for reading this. Your thoughts?

Richard.

 

First off, thank you for taking the time to write all of this.

Now down to business.

My whole feeling about revealing info about someone comes from me wanting to live a private life. I cherish my privacy, I like not being bothered.

I'm not hiding, or being deceptive. I honestly just don't trust people as a whole. This isn't me being paranoid. Many people are not well intentioned. The people who do know me, are ones that I choose to reveal information to. My good friends know a lot about me because I trust them. I can't trust people I do not know.

My whole thing about treating everyone else the same way concerning personal information is because I know I wouldn't want it to happen to me. I assume it because I may not know the person, and they may cherish their privacy just as much.

The "scared senseless" statement is an exaggeration, but I would feel uneasy if someone posted my address, phone number, etc etc. This comes back to the idea that I really think many people cannot be trusted. Why risk it? Why risk letting your information be displayed for millions of people to see? You do not now their intentions, I don't know their intentions, so why take that risk?

Some people feel the need to broadcast themself on the internet. They thrive on the attention. They want to be a hero to some. I do not want that. Let someone else have it, I'm quite fine being a nobody on the internet, and making a somebody of myself in the real world.

Basically to sum everything up, a person should reveal as much information about themself as they feel. Nobody else should do it for them. Let that person set the boundries and create a sense of comfort.

 

I hope you don't feel I am trying to be a superhero here on Fchat, I did remain pretty much under the radar until the MDM thing started. We all bring something to this board and what I have provided in the past is what you disagree on. I have always felt some discretion on what I post, I have never been notified from Rob or Moderators that I am crossing the line. I feel I haven't posted anything that does cross the line, nor would I try or want to. And very true about your last sentence...

 

No prob. And thank you for a polite, reasoned reply.

You may find it hard to believe .... I feel the same way you do!

My bad: I should have been clearer. Many on the Net do engage in deception. Not meant to be a personal dig. Sorry, if it came off that way.

Agreed. And even if you are paranoid .... it doesn't mean they're *not* out to get ya. <tic>

What we need is a paradigm shift back to the future <groan on da puns>. The Internet is the future of human discourse. How it was in the past (prior to algore inventing it <lol, j/k>) is a key to solving today's probs and mitigating future probs.

You don't trust us? Of course not! But if you're worried about risk .... you're at mut greater risk from those who conceal their identities than from those who are open and honest in that regard. Methinks that's just common sense. ;-) Do I need to elaborate?

Again; I agree.

A diff btwn us is the amount and type of info. Here we differ. <shrug>

Furthermore .... how can you trust those who conceal their identities from you? Isn't that really the foundation of your distrust (in re the forums)? Think about it.

Imagine a Net (it wasn't so long ago that it worked just that way) where at least you *know* that so-and-so from, etc, etc, actually was that person. The result was a whole lot more trust and deservedly so.
Bt i'm just repating my previous post so i'll stop here. <and the crowd breathes a sigh of relief> LOL!

But that's EXACTLY what I'M talking about. All are treated the same way. Publicly available info is readily available to all. Does that make sense?

IOW; we're all operating on the same level playing field.

It's a matter of degree my friend. Case in point: My "private" phone number is unlisted. But only due to habit. Because w/caller ID, digital logging and other tech it's no longer necessary to have an unlisted number (imho).

Side issue: Of course those who would invade our privacy and annoy us w/unsolicited calls are now hiding their caller ID. But even that's not much of a prob. If you hide your caller ID .... I don't answer the phone. <shrug> And that's another example of why hiding one's indentity is primarily useful to thsoe whom we should NOT trust!

Understood. Sorry, I thought you meant it, more or less, literally.

I ask again (kindly <g>): What's the risk?

I gave several reasons. What do you think of them?

For the rewards?

BTW, it's not difficult to trace most folks on the Net. Anyone wishing to obtain your public info may do so (depends on exact circumstances, of course).

I'm sure YOU don't mean that I shoudl take this personally, right? <chuckle>

Seriously, how is one being an "attention whore" (implied), etc, etc, by simply advocating that folks should be open and honest? And that public info should be just that .... public?

I ask what are those who vehemently decry such policies .... what are they trying to hide (present co. excepted, you already gave us an aswer, albeit a partial one)?

I don't understand. At worst, I suppose it's possible that you might be subjected to spam mail and unsolicited calls. Perhaps the odd Mormons on a mission (hilarious aussie thread!) or even a vacuum salesman or two.

Not what i'd call insurmountable probs. <shrug>

Ah, my friend .... you are "somebody!!!" You're ferrari355fi.

And of course you defined the prob. Ie; this is NOT the "real world." So, it's OK to lie, cheat, harrass, threaten, etc. Because you're NOT real, right?

Well I say: Get Real!

Then they should *not* join forums. Simple solution. While they're at it they may also chose to have their phone numbers unlisted, etc, etc. I don't have a prob w/that.

I detailed what I consider to be the *basic* prob on the forums (and the Net in general). I offered a solution. I gave examples. What more can I do?

I'm not asking for anythign not readily available as a matter of public record. Nor am I asking for possibly embarrassing info. Just who you *really* are. I do add that "vested interests" must also disclose same when applicable. But that's another WHOLLY unpopular issue. <lol>

I salute those who post their true indetities. And I also salute those who do it for those who'd rather not.

I feel more comfortable knowing that the "Net Denizen" i'm chatting w/is not hiding their true identity.

Nice chatting w/u. I hope you'll continue this discussion. I am very interested in your detailed ops.

Richard.

 

Hey Rich, that last Post of yours requires a few chapters

 

I feel confident that ferrari355fi does not feel that way about you (nor i).

However that may be .... I don't think there's anything wrong w/being a "superhero." Heck, we should thank you and others like you.

Although I admit at first I was concerned. I worried that some would use personal info (and attacks related to personal info) to embarrass, humiliate, etc, those whom they disliked.

And then I realized that MY fears stemmed mostly from the fact that on today's Net .... anyone can pretend to be .... whatever.

Remove the "virtual" curtain and suddenly the posers, etc, are less able to do harm. Period!

Ok. But the point remains .... those who wish to engage in egregious conduct would find it harder to do so if *everyone* knew who they were.

Richard.

 

You do make good points, and I agree with most of it.

What I do not agree with is someone else posting another person's information. It is like throwing a baby bird out of the nest to watch it fly, but unknown to you, the bird has not learned to fly. You have taken the bird out of it's comfort zone (the nest), and forced it into a situation it is not ready for. When someone is ready to share personal information, it should be when they want to.


Another thing that I disagree with is that it seems that you assume that people who want to keep some anonymity are up to no good, or are hiding some evil, deep, dark secret. Some people just don't want to be bothered. I know a few people on here who post or just read and have minimal to no information in their profile and reveal very little as well. These people are great people when you meet them in person, talk to them privately through email, or talk to them on the phone.

 

Let me use the MDM guys as an example. They came here, and everyone was in an uproar when people found out they were 19 year olds. Yes it was good that they were stopped because they were doing illegal things (copyright infringement, blah blah blah), but it went too far when their Myspace accounts were posted. Those accounts had nothing to do with what was going on. They had to shut their accounts down, etc etc, because of the harrassment they were getting. Things spilled over from Fchat onto Myspace.

 

I think thats questionable by personal opinion, I feel as a result of their actions is why that happened.

 

would you like it to be done to you? Then when it is done, you harassing comments?

I think it went too far. Leave it on this site. They should have been (if they weren't) banned, and then everyone should have moved on.

 

RAllen,

Privacy is an important issue to many people. People do not want to be data mined. Most people do not want their personal info sold. People do not want to be stalked or harassed, be it people or corporations. I must be on a telemarketers list and I hate it. And almost all these calls come from Canada so the companies can circumvent the Do Not Call List. How did I get on the telemarketers list? My guess is I must have entered a sweepstakes at some time, and that information was sold.

I think like everything in life, 1% of the people ruin a good thing for 99% of the people. How many spammers are out there? I bet almost all the billions of viagra and penis pump emails come from less than a dozen people. Would you want those guys knowing your home phone number?

There are some people who are wealthy who do not want others knowing their wealth. I guarantee there are people here who own a Ferrari but don't advertise the fact to everyone. All it takes is google to find out the footprints of a screen name or real name (if a real name is used).

I'll give another example. Say there is a forum where the main topic is credit. Say you have horrible credit and want advice. Do you want your real name posted?? Do you want the world, including future employers, to know your problems?

 

+1 They were frauds and should have been exposed as such. If the posts on myspace saved one person form getting caught up with these guys then it it was worth it IMO. If you are not trying to be deceptive then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. All this is public it can be accessed by all. Some like tgood are just better at getting the info than others. I don't think tgood has crossed any line.

 

From what I remember, their myspace account was not used as advertising or anything else business related.

 

My sentiments exactly, unfortunately most people do not see it that way.

 

Sorry. I always manage to find more words than necessary. <lol>

Richard.

 

Thx. Thru dialogue perhaps we can resolve the few issues that are left.

Under the *present* system ... you are generally correct. But when it comes to exposing frauds, etc, then it should be applauded, IMHO.

I disagree w/ur analogy due to abovementioned factors. Ie; fraud, etc.

WTS: I do agree w/u as the system stands. OTOH; I believe that disclosures should be a membership requirement.

Not necessarily. But as I recall *you* were the one who first insisted that trusting others might be unwise.

From my POV: If you're hiding something ..... your motives are suspect. Ergo: I don't trust you. <shrug> And to protect myself I must assume that you're up to no good.

The mitigating factor .... (I repeat myself all too often do't I?) is that under the present system; e.g. using aliases is accepted; even expected.

Now you're repeating yourself. <chuckle> And yet avoid answering my queries .... once again. ;-)

I are one of 'em. <LOL>

I hope I are one of 'em also.

Richard.

 

My friend you are going to be flamed for using them as an example. Please try again.

Richard.

 

Well written reply ZR1. I hope you don't take it personal when I shred it. Or try. <chuckle>

Agreed. How we define privacy might be a prob in this context.

E.g. I do not consider it an invasion of privacy for the whole world to know who I am, where I live, my phone number (the private line, I keep private, but already expalined why and it has little to do w/privacy mostly a matter of convenience). I'm sure there's more but how's that for a start?

Agreed. I dislike it also.

Well, it irks me somewhat that I don't receive royalties/dues. <chuckle>

You're assuming much ZR1. None of it in evidence.

E.g. How does one hiding their identity prevent them from being stalked or harrassed? And the inverse? That is also untrue.

What is the risk of being stalked/harrassed? How do oyuo quantify it? No need for a dissertation. Just common sense replies.

Think long: I guarantee you that your replies will be found wanting. Simply because the risk is sooo minimal. But there's more .... ;-)

Hate is a stronger word than what i'd use but I feel for ya. TMs suck!

Isn't that a small price to pay for the rewards of having telephone service?

IOW, putting it into context: The minimal hassle of having the phone ring, or someone sending you unwanted mailings, etc, due to your info being available on-line is certainly worth the cmaraderie, the knowledge gained and the entertainment found on these great forums.

And let's not discount the huge benefits accrued by diminishing the risk of being deceived, defrauded, harrassed and etc, due to the fact that we all would know each others info.

As for the solution to the unwated calls and mail? So freakin simple: Don't answer calls from those whom you do not wish to speak with (or simply turn off the rigner during certian hrs). And throw the mail away.

So simple. Why do we seek to complicate matters. Why say we "hate" something so easily dealt with. Why let the little probs, easily resolved, upset us so.

Sorry, i jist doan get it!

More likely it happened when you last filled a credit app. We have traced a recent period of such unwanted calls, mailings, etc, to exactly that!

Well, the percentages are certainly exaggerated. But ok.

Uh, pick me, pick me <hands waving in the air> I know this!

All of them. All of them. <sigh>

Any unsolicited calls, mailings, etc, are spam. And unavoidable but easily dealt with. E.g. I seldom receive emailed spam but seldom miss an email from others. Why? eMail filters (using apple and YMMV). Sooo simple.

And when the filters miss. A few mouse clicks. Sooo easy.

ZR1, seriously and no offense, is "spam" the best you can do?

I postulated Psycho Net Surfing murderers. That didn't fly either. <lol>

Uh, how do ya know they don't have it? Maybe I could use a good penis pump to go along w/the Viagra? ;-)

Seriously, no prob ZR1. It's why I own a phone. And drive a car. And etc. Exposing myself to risk everyday (and then some, go ahead and ask).

Come on .... what's the real risk of being open and honest ..... if one does NOT have ill intent?

Minimal to none, is my answer. Yours?

For what purpose? Due to what fears? Shall I bring up Napolis again? Clue: He's still not "scared senseless."

Of course. But why hide the fact?

Yes. Thx for kindly pointing out what i've been saying. IOW; ya can run but ya caint hide suckah! <chcukle>

While credit info is not usually considered "public domain." You've opened up a whle can of worms. Which I must answer w/a whole can of "Whoop Ass!"

Under our present system, almost any business may obtain a credit report on you and even add to that report. But you will have probs getting those reports and there's very little you can do to alter them. E.g. in case of fraud or innacuracies.

Although laws are changing in that re, it's an uphill battle for the consumer. It's not because we, those asking for credit, want our info kept private but because the credit issuers and reporting agencies lobby hard and fast to stop legislation that would empower us all. But I digress. Onward ....

Of course not. I want to deceive those who would place their trust in me and loan me a buck or two. Thx A Million ZR1 .... you just made my point for me!!!

As an employer I run background checks (credit, criminal and driving) on all applicants. Of coure I want to know whom i'm hiring. Should I not have a right to know?

Back in context .... I want to know that the Lambo owning real estate developer i'm chatting w/and mayhaps seeking advice from is not a lying sack of doggy doo. While I may be fooled anyway .... it'll make it much harder for him to do so if we all are open to scrutiny.

Knowlede is power ZR1. Under today's system those who have the power are *exactly* those whom you should worry about. Goverments, businesses, the unscrupulous (e.g. a certain well known recently busted PI), the psychos, or simply the astute.

As for the average man/woman .... at their mercy.

And you advocate keeping it that way?

ZR1, you of all people should know better. You were treated harshly due to common newbie errors. You blew up! Don't you think that you and the folks you argued with would have been more polite if all of you knew each other's info?

Or is it that you fear personal embarrassement and therefore *prefer* to remain anonymous so that you may VENT again? And again? And when you've been humiliated (or shall I say; do it to yourself) you may simply establish a new identity and start again? And again?

Please read the above as spoken in a quiet and gentle tone and manner. TIA for your consideration.

If you are indeed new to the Net than I can understand your position. But keep in mind that in da good ole days .... folsk were much more polite and lo and behold .... no spam probs to speak of either.

Dayum! Another chapter. Sorry, thx for reading this.

Richard.

 

No one likes being caught and held accountable. But I doubt that Tgood (certainly not i) would do what those frauds did.

Effin-A-Bubbah! They got what they deserved!

The irony lies in the fact that they can simply establsih new identities and try it all over again. Victimizing how many, my friend?

BTW, all of these websites prohibit stalking, harrassing, etc, .... but it's easy to get away w/it if you're anonymous. Much harder when we know who oyu are bubbah! Get the point?

You're entitled to that opinion. And maybe you're right. But the point is that harsh penalties are likely when we *can* punish the anonymous frauds who are constantly trying to take advantage of us.

Keep in mind that those "kids" showed us that they were willing to commit illegal and distasteful acts in the pursuit of (supposedly) easy profit.

You should thank those who exposed them and "harrassed" them. Maybe MDM learned a lesson. Remaining anonymous is harder than one thinks.

But .... until one's exposed .... how much harm can one do?

Let's mitigate the likelihood of unjust punishment by mitigating the risk of harm in the first place!!!

No way! Why should only FChatters be protected and all others be subjected to fraud, etc?

Moved on? As in forgotten about it? Well, that would be OK if we all knew each other (more or less, right?). But since the Net is an easy place to hide for those w/ill intent, the unscrupulous must be pursued.

Think about those kids a mo ferrari355f1 .... do you really think I would have bought an F430 from them knowing what I know now (my thx to the FChat PoPo)? Of course not. But I might have been tempted otherwise. And what do you think, heck KNOW, would have happened .... I would have been ripped off in one way or another.

You may reply that (e.g.) Roy might rip me off. Sure he *might* .... but it's much less likely. In fact very, very unlikely.

I really can't believe your defending MDM and chastising those who gave them their comeuppance.

Richard.

 

Agreed!

W/a warning r two:

1) "Perfection is the Lord's virtue." We must be careful not to be too quick to call foul.
2) We do expose ourselves to risk from spammers. And even Psycho Net Surfing murderers.

Richard.

 

Neither did a certain individual use his AIM account for business when soliciting sex from minors. Get the point?

Richard.

 

My guess, and it's just a WAG ... is that it's because the Net's been around long enuff for people to realize that there are sooo freakin many bums on it.

Case in point: Almost everyone I know has told me that they will no longer do biz on eBay. Ebay's one of the best inventions capitalism has yet devised! But the site has been so abused (mostly due to identity related issues) that it's become a haven for rip off artists!

The Net's still relatively young. But probs are increasing and if we don't start taking steps to protect ourselves .... Da Gub will do it for us. And I guarantee we won't like what "Uncle" comes up with!

An easily implemented protection is readily available. The risk is minimal. The rewards many and varied.

You decide. <shrug> I've already made my choice.

Richard.