Just so everyone understands the person making the above post is connected with FNA. As "J Gary" never claimed that the car in question has been presented to Ferrari Classiche why you would mention Ferrari Classiche is beyond me. The statements that "J. Gary" made were quite clear and speak for themselves. Hiding behind "Old Guy" and stating: "On the other hand, since J. Gary made all these statements in a couple of FAXes, since he's trying to sell the car, and since it's on the Internet, I guess it must all be true." in a sarcastic manner is pathetic. Grow a set of balls and stand behind what you say under your own name. You saying what he's saying isn't true? Then come out and say it. He said that "Gaetano Florini, at the time he was Director General of the Technical Assistance Department of Ferrari" in 1986 certified that the chassis was original. Are you saying that that is not true? Make his day. Call him a liar.
No car claiming the identity of 6045 is by any stretch of the imagination original or authentic in the light of how the car left the Factory and the current components of whichever car claims that identity today. -Jarrett
The end MUST be near, because JG and myself are on the same side of the fence on this one. It would seem to me that if somebody from the Ferrari factory authenticates a car while acting as an employee/agent of Ferrari, then that would pretty much indicate that the car has been officially "ordained" as being the real McCoy. (Officially "ordained", yes,...but that would never necessarily stop debate among enthusiasts.) Unless somebody is slipping some big bags of cash under the table to some authentication personnel, one would think that the Ferrari factory's word is THE final word.
Yes but 6045 still exists and is authentic as most old race cars and is the car with the repaired chassis. Sure it has been repaired, but it still could be made exactly the same as when it left the factory, ie. specs and all. Remember NO car is exactly as it left the factory as hopefully it has received an oil change by now. All built things come under the continuous history rule. That is what courts use. An example is the famous No. 1 (?) Bentley, and ofcourse Jim's 0846. The other car with the original engine is 100% a replica, heck it has even been documented that he had it commissioned. What a pity he did that, and trying to angle for 50% ownership of the real car just because he had an engine block is a bit rich IMO. Should have donated it to the owner for a very reasonable price, instead of trying to turn it into mucho cash ... Pete
Agree. The term 'acting' implies that they actually did this for the company, they did not just make a personal statement. Pete
If a car gets burned to the ground 5 years after it was contructed and its remaining parts get used to build several different cars in various body shops around the world, non of which are the Ferrari Factory, and one of those gets "certified" by one or several people at the Factory, I personally do not believe that this "certification" means anything about the car's originality or authenticity. We are not talking about an oil change here. -Jarrett
Jarrett Arlie and Pete are correct legally: Period. (IF WHAT J GARY HAS PUBICALLY STATED IS TRUE) What anyone feels the car is "entitled" to be called is opinion and yours is what you believe and some will agree with it and others won't. Pete In the US the law that applies and makes 0846 Legally what it is and something that can no longer be challenged (6 years being more than a reasonable period of time) is "Estoppel" not "Continuous History" Estoppel by acquiescence arises when one person gives a legal warning to another based on some clearly asserted facts or legal principle, and the other does not respond or challenge within "a reasonable period of time". By acquiescing, the other person is generally considered to have lost the legal right to assert the contrary. Once again this is totally separate and distinct from what 0846 as it exists today is and is not and I'm not debating that here. Best
Interesting and obviously legally correct. I though prefer cars are judge by continuous history ... it's simple . In 6045's case we have 100% continuous history so there is no doubt at all that the car bearing the repaired chassis IS 6045 in it's current form. That is one of the reasons why I like New Zealand's ownership papers (it's a pity all car ownership is not controlled there), as these papers have the chassis and engine numbers and also every single owner of that car since it was sold new, including mileage at each sale point. Basically you buy the papers and a bit of steel goes with it. It also makes finding previous owners and filling in the history a piece of cake. Best Pete
I respectfully disagree. There are a number of Ferrari historians who's opinion I would value more than that of the factory; especially today with Ferrari's "Classiche" program.
Word. In the end what the car really is, is what matters but I agree that in this case if what J Gray publicly posted is true legally it's over. There is a very interesting case before the courts today that touches on this issue involving a 330P. It has the potential to as Bob said: Soon shake the windows and rattle the walls. Best
Yes, Jim, as some people here know, I do work with both Ferrari North America and Ferrari S.p.A. I do not post under my own name as I do not wish my personal opinions in any way to reflect on Ferrari. Your insults are duly noted, but I have known the person in question for over 25 years, and he and I have discussed 6045. The same statement is true for the person who has been offering 6045 for sale in the U.S. The conversations concerning 6045 were held as a result of my position. I have not expressed any opinion as to the claimed history of 6045, other than to say that simply because it is posted on the Internet does not make it true. There is at least one person who has a different version of this history; I am not in a position to verify either version. My statement concerning 6045 and the Classiche Department was made for a reason, and is correct. Ferrari has a well defined procedure for "approving" a car. To my knowledge the owner of 6045 LMhas not submitted an application, and at the present time that car has not been certified as authentic. I understand why you might not be comfortable with someone with ties to Ferrari being involved here. That's easy enough to fix.
D Instead of continued bull**** why can't you answer a simple question? J Grey has claimed: "Gaetano Florini, at the time he was Director General of the Technical Assistance Department of Ferrari" in 1986 certified that the chassis was original. Is this true? Your statement: "I understand why you might not be comfortable with someone with ties to Ferrari being involved here." is laughable, pathetic and implies something that is completely untrue.
I was told that several 250 LM copies are floating around, is there a list anywhere that documents the (beyond the earlier post) known copies, or serial numbers to be careful about? Thanks, Vince
Why wouldn't 6045 (the one in Ny.) be an authentic 250LM? Is it not an authentic LM because it was burned and then restored to original? Ok the motor was changed, so it's not a number matching vehicle but does this also make it a fake? My point being......I'm sure close to everyone a part of this forum who owns a vintage vehicle whether Ferrari or whatever has had some type of resto work done. Possibly a fender, bonnet fabricated, rocker panel, etc. "Exuse me sir, but could you please just bondo my fender I know it's really beat up, but it's an original Ferrari fender" screw that, everyone knows the factory doesn't supply sheet metal anymore for many of these cars, does that make every restored car a replica or less original? I think not, unfortunately this LM's chassis number is tainted because some other tool built a car from scratch and used the no. 6045 on the chassis.....just like someone else said previously, your not going to find a race car that hasn't had stuff changed at one point or another......this LM is not numbers matching, therefore it might not get the numbers a matching one would....that's all. Wherever the car was refinished they did a magnificent job, it is quite stunning
Agreed......the other cars that have had similar adventures are a racing Jag, and IIRC, a Ford GT40 got split this way.........
It is my understanding that the car in NY has *most* of the original chassis parts that were salvageable from the fire in 1969. What percentage of the chassis that is I do not know. Like any old muscle car of that era that is not #'s matching it is still a real 250LM. Is it exactly like it was when it rolled out of the assembly line? No. The engine block from 6045 (as previously stated) resides in a fabricated non-ferrari built clone chassis in a car in California. Is this the real 6045LM in my opinion NO, it has the engine from the car in NY. Sadly no one is crazy enough or bold enough to (as Napolis mentioned) send them both back to Ferrari and let them "restore" 6045 back to its original form. The by product is that the 600k car in california will loose 50% if not more of its value by being a recreation and 6045 will jump in value to having the chassis reunited with the engine. So I can understand why the person who owns the car with the engine block is reluctant to sell it as a clone. There may be several other clones with the chassis stamp 6045 LM out there but I would guess the parts they have based those cars off of are minimal at best and should be recognized as nothing more than a clone or recreation. Again, all my personal opinion. I didn't mean to stir up so much drama when I posted this. CRIPES!
I'm still wondering where all these replica builders obtain the proper chassis diagrams that allow them to actually weld up a correct chassis that closely resembles an original? (be it a 250LM, GTO, TR or whatever.) Such diagrams seem to be unobtainable.
My point was how much of the car was left after the fire would determine (at least to me) if the car is a restoration or recreation. I don't know the answer and haven't seen any documents to substantiate it is a restoration and not a recreation. I am in NO WAY saying it IS a recreation! I would like to see something like the book Jim did on his car to make any kind of rational and logical opinion.
You may. There are 171 threads and thousands of posts on FCHAT where my identity is clearly revealed. The views of which number in the hundreds of thousands. The link in my signature leads one to a website featuring my cars where I am clearly identified by name. Do you seriously think that there is anyone reading this thread who doesn't know or who can't easily find out exactly who I am? Exactly who I am is a non issue. The the issue here remains: "Gaetano Florini, at the time he was Director General of the Technical Assistance Department of Ferrari" in 1986 certified that the chassis was original. Is this true? Old Guy's statement: "I understand why you might not be comfortable with someone with ties to Ferrari being involved here." remains laughable, pathetic and implies something that is completely untrue.
IMHO Surely the great question is when does something cease to exist as an item. If I drink a bottle of wine and then refill the bottle does it still exist or is it just a bottle with liquid in it, Jeffersons axe with three new heads and two handles. And many many other analogies. Well when does 6045LM cease to exist, surely there becomes a point where you systematically replace all of the car until you have a very nice accurate car that contains only small parts actually built by Ferrari in the 1960's. I would feel that no matter what you get you willl always have more questions than answer's. Cheers Tim
IMHO Surely the great question is when does something cease to exist as an item. If I drink a bottle of wine and then refill the bottle does it still exist or is it just a bottle with liquid in it, Jeffersons axe with three new heads and two handles. And many many other analogies. Well when does 6045LM cease to exist, surely there becomes a point where you systematically replace all of the car until you have a very nice accurate car that contains only small parts actually built by Ferrari in the 1960's. I would feel that no matter what you get you willl always have more questions than answer's. Cheers Tim
