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Dino Pouch Set with a healthy start out of the shoot...

Discussion in '206/246' started by tx246, Dec 9, 2006.

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  1. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Dave M.
    #26 dm_n_stuff, Dec 19, 2006
    Ok who took business 101? I think I can still remember the lecture on market pricing.

    As a manufacturer, distributor, or retailer, you take your costs including overhead, add markup for profit and then determine your selling price by WHATEVER SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY FOR YOUR PRODUCT, as indicated by similar products already on the market.

    If that price falls below your cost, SKIP IT, if it's over, make it and SELL IT!!

    This, unfortunately, does not follow a market strategy.

    As long as we're willing to bid these things up, prices will rise. You have a finite supply of product, and what appears to be a deep pocketed but narrow market. Sooner or later these things will stop showing up on ebay (or at least slow to a trickle) and then our friends who have stockpiled them will push their product out to market.

    At that time, we'll all determine together what the actual market value of these items are, until then, it's just a speculators buying up the supply.

    Depending on your point of view, this could either follow the Hunt brothers silver market fiasco, or be more of an OPEC example, where you control the flow of product to attempt to control the price.

    DM
     
  2. BT

    BT F1 World Champ
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    #27 BT, Dec 19, 2006
    Yes, I took a business minor in college, but the prices are not based on anything I understand as logical, captain. The pouches are not something that cannot be re-manufactured, and are not serial number matched to the car. To me it is like someone selling original seat hides for restoration work, when the majority are glad to refinish the originals, or buy re-manufactured hides. What is soooooo special about a pouch and some literature?
    BT
     
  3. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

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    #28 4redno, Dec 19, 2006
    I get the collector mindset and the associated pricing.

    If you own a Dino, finding the correct Dino pouch to complete the car is almost like making your baby whole again. If you collect pouches and literature, each piece takes on a life of its own and provided you can afford it, you buy them all and take them out to study their subtle nuances and differences. Some collectors won't let them go. Others trade them when money alone can't get a deal done or when the money is sufficient to fund another acquisition of great interest.

    The price for reproduction kits is business 101. People who wouldn't spend $7K to buy a real kit and guys like Tom who will invest the money to make kits will determine that price point. However, the business of real kits is economics 101 and a bit of advanced chemistry. I wouldn't bet on a market correction.

    My $0.02
     
  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #29 dm_n_stuff, Dec 19, 2006
    I happen to think there's a ton more speculative buying going on in Dino pouches and literature than in Dinos themselves.

    There are a few guys out there trying their best to corner the market. I wish 'em luck.

    If I was one of them (I'm not) I'd be a little nervous about my payback period. Fortunately I'm sure they can afford to hold the asset for 5 or 10 years until the demand for this particular product (among car owners, not speculators) catches up with their supply.

    I just don't think there are enough Dino owners out there to support a market at $8-10K for a set of books with a correct Dino pouch. Toss another $6K in for tools (or is that too low now?) and you have accessories costing 10% (or more) of the total value of the car.

    Time will tell, that's for sure.

    DM
     
  5. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3

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    #30 4redno, Dec 19, 2006
    I don't think the market for these items is primarly the Dino owners. I think literature brokers/collectors are the real market and they will hold for a long time because they can and want to (5-10 years or more as noted).

    Supply & demand - got to love it.

    ...Keith
     
  6. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

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    #31 TLKIZER660, Dec 19, 2006
    First, I'm not a Canuck. I'm a retired American automotive engineer, born and educated in Missouri, who has made a considerable effort during his life trying to overcome the stereotypes of "engineers can't spell" and "Americans are poorly educated".

    Second, being an expatriot, I am constantly exposed to anti-american sentiments and am, therefore, always conscious of the fact that, to the people I meet, I represent the U.S. So maybe I'm too sensitive about the correct choice of words.

    Last, It was a JOKE! That's why I spelled the word "CHOT" instead of "SHOT" and appended the acronym LOL.

    If I offended someone, I apologize.

    Tom Kizer
     
  7. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    #32 tx246, Dec 19, 2006
    with all due respect to everyone on this forum, i think you guys are all wrong.

    yes, i think the sales price of this pouch set IS NOT market correct. however, the market brings what the market brings.

    as YOU offer your opinion, let me give you mine, based off of my own history. i bought my first dino in the fall of 2001. i had been looking for some time. i passed on a good solid driver gts here in houston during the summer of 1999 for $35k (the final selling price, although the seller was asking $45k). it had it's books and records and tools, too. i know this because i was looking at them out of dumb fascination. when i finally decided that i was going to buy a dino, i used this car for comparison. i gave up on the idea of flying across country as most cars were described as great, when in fact they had problems. at this time (late 2000) you could buy a great gt for $45k and a great gts for $55k.

    in late feb. 2001, i came across s/n 04274 here in houston. the owner had owned the car for 15 years and was looking to sell for reasons that were more family related than anything. he wanted $70 k for the dino gts. we bickered back and forth, i thought max value was $60k as/is, but he was insistent on the $70k mark. after six months of going back and forth, the car dropped a valve after being driven by the "body shop" at night - the car was there for a minor paint touch up and taken out by the guys at the shop that over revved the engine. forget all the legal issues with the car, but i passed at that point and continued looking (i ended up buying this car in march of this year - 2006)

    i ended up buying s/n 07714 in the fall of 01 from a german car colelctor. the dino was the only italian car he had. when i went to look at it, i walked past two gullwings and numerous vw's i had never seen before, many of which were one-offs and prototypes. two weeks later, i bought the car for $63k. it "only" had a warranty manual, agents directory (74), and a owners manual.

    thus (in 2001) began my search for ferrari dino items. i placed ads in the fml, contacted john kennedy, denny schue with the dino registry, gerald roush with fml and began to scour ebay (which was relatively new in it's beginings).

    it didn't take long for me to find a 74 style pouch out of australia (complete and total luck) for which i paid $400 - the only pouch that EVER came up. i started searching for keyfobs, that took two years and i paid $300 for the first one to see. john kennedy sold me a parts book for $300 back in 2002 - more money than i could have ever expected, but there were no to be had, regardless of price (kepp in mind, this price isn't much different today).

    i have built a solid collection in the years following, but only on contacts and searching and odd items that ended up on ebay.

    i bought my first dino tool kit in 2002 (missing a couple of itews) for $900. and have built the toolkits from there. today, these are worth considerably more, but only the price increases have drawn them out. the "SECOND" tool kit i even had the cahcne to buy was in early 2004 - two years worth of asking and no toolkits available (forgetting price) when one came up for sale.

    today, i own four dino's. s/n's 03930, 04274, 07714, and 08468. based on the amount of time i have spent tracking down dino items, the price i have paid is relaitvely cheap vs the value of my time. once i knew how hard it was to find these items, i knew the value. this is one of the reasons you still see me bid on items on ebay that i may not need.

    enter nunzio on ebay. yes, does it frustrate me that he bids against me and outbids me on regaular occasions, YES!!!!!!

    however, i spent a good three years on ebay buying everything (which wasn't much) that came up. nunzio has changed the value market but also brought far more items to market than would have been available before. i can't tell you how many people i have dealt with that state that they had no idea as to the value but for a friend that drove them to sell based on recent ebay sales, most of which didn't start being driven until the fall of 2004.

    whether or not we know the motives (we all know that ken lewis sold out his ferrari literature/document business in the summer of 2004) of any current buyer/seller of ferrai history, we can't speculate.

    i lucked into buying the 74 pouch when i did. i paid $400 for it at the time, however, i didn't have a chance to bid on another on ebay for over 2 years. certain people driving prices up have brought more itmes out for auction. it took me two years to find one dino fob, now i can find them like crazy. forget the values and the motives, actions that are being criticised are the reasons that collectors like myself can enjoy the hobby.

    i have more crap than i know what to do with, and i love it. i can't tell you how much fun i get out of debating this issue or the next. my first two years of dino ownership included none of that, sure, f-chat has helped, but without the reason for debate, no one would care, other than me and two or three others.

    i can't say whether speculators are going to "dump" items on th emarket in years to come or not. i have to say i doubt it. why would they dimenish the value they have? they don't need the money. rather, items have dried up on ebay and other venues, short of the "oh, i forgot i had" crowd, items aren'r being listed with any frequebcy. high prices have drawn a great number of items out of the woods, but theren't aren't many other to come out. it has been many months since an original fob has come to the market. yes, they sell for high dollars, but an original to a purist like me, is always far more valuable than a repro, even if i am one of the few that knows the difference.
     
  8. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #33 synchro, Dec 20, 2006
    Great insight into the facts, Thanks.

    I agree with Shawn that the accesory items have not tanked, although it is counter intuitive that they can soar to such high prices.

    Just like Shawn, I received an incomplete package when I bought my first Dino. In the pre-internet days of the early '90s I was buying and trading Dino items with John Kennedy and also Dennis McCann to complete my set. Shawn is cutting through the fog and is correct - the accesories appreciate faster than the cars and despite the feeling by many that supply has outstripped demand, it has been said before and dispelled also.
    I've watched this through good and bad times.

    This month marks my tenth year on Ebay with my current USERID (earlier we had to change IDs to change our email address!), so I must respectfully disagree with your statement about Ebay in 2001 being the beginnings, although it was still in a growing phase.



     
  9. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    #34 tx246, Dec 20, 2006
    what i meant by that statement was as more people began to use ebay, it became an even more valuable resource. in reading what i wrote (and realizing my lack of correctly typo's), i didn't clearly state what i meant. even the first dino i bought was on ebay at one point when the seller thought my offer was too low. we all know that ebay has been around for quite some time, i didn't mean to imply it didn't
     
  10. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #35 dm_n_stuff, Dec 20, 2006
    I think a lot of the comments on here are self serving.

    Those who have a lot of "stuff" think the prices will continue to rise, or at least they hope so.

    Those who don't have all the "stuff" they need yet pray for a market correction.

    However, the one over riding factor that I see is that most of the guys with multiple sets of books, tools or odds and ends are speculators, not collectors.

    A collector won't sell, doesn't matter where the market is, a speculator is an investor, and he's gonna watch the market and sell when he thinks he can maximize his profit.

    Shawn, I don't know how many sets of books, pouches, tools, and other stuff you have, but, I'm pretty sure if someone came along and offered you silly more for it, you'd sell. You would keep what you need, and let the rest go out on the market.

    I'm certain Nunzio intends to sell what he buys. Maybe not today, but someday, and when he does, it will be when market conditions are most favorable for him.

    Will his position hold prices up? I can't say.

    Would anyone here who does not yet have a complete set of books and tools that drives a Dino pay $15,000 to complete them?

    On the other hand, would someone who wants to get his car into 98 point concours condition pay whatever it takes to complete his set?

    And finally, would the guy with a car that he wants to sell for top dollar seek the bits and pieces he's missing at current market prices to maximize his sale price?

    That's what this market has yet to prove. We know the speculators will pay top dollar, but we don't know what the end user market will pay.

    DM
     
  11. ferrari dino

    ferrari dino Karting

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    #36 ferrari dino, Dec 20, 2006
    I predict the pouch market will drop when Nuzio gets bored and moves on to newer projects. Time frame ????? If he stops bidding up the market on ebay will he will not be able to sell his pouches at a profit. He would have then paid too much for his inventory. Watch for his inventory reduction and then his disappearance. THE DUST WILL SETTLE.

    If Nuzio is watching this thread I would like to mention the word sharing. The Ferrari Dino community is small. We like to help each other out. We'd like to think your one of us.
     
  12. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #37 synchro, Dec 20, 2006

    Good, valid points, but inconsistent historically with the car price crashes in the past where pouch prices continued to rise.

    Another few points to consider are
    1) that many of these cars are getting restored (e.g. OMGjon's) and fewer "dogged cars" are remaining, so more owners may be interested in obtaining these accessories.
    2) Dealers have predominantly clung to the books/tools/triangle/jack when selling the car leaving many cars out there without them.

    I think a more damaging article would be if Tom S or whoever comes up with excellent reproductions then owners who don't concours their cars will not seek the originals.


    Dave - why haven't you picked up one of the repro pouches and ended your search?



    Happy Holidays
     
  13. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #38 dm_n_stuff, Dec 21, 2006
    I have a good pouch, it's just not a Dino pouch. A gift from a generous member of the Ferrari community, that works quite well holding my stuff.

    The repro pouches that I've seen so far don't hold a candle to the real thing.

    However, Tom S. promises to end that misery, and I trust that he will. When he does, he already knows who his first customer is.:D

    DM
     
  14. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #39 dm_n_stuff, Jan 26, 2007
    How did I miss this post?

    I think Nunzio epitomizes sharing in the community.

    He shares his knowledge, he shares his cars, and on not one or two or three occasions, but on many more than that he has given items from his literature collection to members of the Ferrari community that needed them. Sure he buys and sells stuff too, but then again who doesn't? I

    There are not enough Nunzios to go around, at least not in my book.

    And hey, we can all make a contribution to that. I have a 348 pouch that was given to me that I no longer need. John, If you know anyone who needs a well worn 348 pouch, have them PM me.

    Thanks,

    Dave M.
     
  15. ferrari dino

    ferrari dino Karting

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    #40 ferrari dino, Jan 29, 2007
     
  16. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #41 synchro, Jan 29, 2007
    Well, that's one viewpoint...

    I politely alerted him that I was getting solicited for Second Chance Offers (from others that were not him) when I bid on his Ebay auction items and asked him if he was aware of it? He sent me a very aggressive email bordering on rudeness and then banned me from his auctions.

    Seems very strange since we had previously done over $3000.00 in Ebay transactions.
     
  17. ferrari dino

    ferrari dino Karting

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    #42 ferrari dino, Jan 29, 2007
    That wasn't my quote. It was from dm_n_stuff

     
  18. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #43 dm_n_stuff, Jan 29, 2007
    Fellas,

    Everyone here has their own experiences with any number of ebay sellers and buyers.

    I was simply stating the experience that I, and others who have spoken to me, have had with Nunzio. He's a reputable guy, with absolutely nothing to gain (in the big picture) by sticking anyone at anytime on anything.

    Is he perfect? Nope, no one is. Is he safer to deal with than most of the guys who peddle Ferrari stuff on ebay? ABSOLUTELY. He pays on his buys almost before the auction closes, he ships promptly product that is EXACTLY as advertised, and he backs his stuff up with a very solid knowledge of what he's selling.

    Hack away at him if you want, but I think the guys who are hitters in the Ferrari world trust him and buy from him and sell to him. As have many of the guys in this thread and on FerrariChat.

    Ferrari Dino. You've some interactions with him, right?

    Wspeer? You too, am I correct?

    And Shaughnessy along with many, many others.

    DM
     
  19. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    #44 tx246, Jan 29, 2007

    i have bought many things from nunzio on ebay. every item i bought arrived as described, typically with vintage ferrari packing material to protect them - which is fun for reading if nothing else. generally an email followed stating if i wasn't satisfied, i could return the item. i never did return a single thing, as there was no need.

    when the second chance nonsense started, i too contacted nunzio about it. he made clear then and now in all of his auctions that he , under no circumstances, offers an item as a second chance. he goes on to say that if you receive one of these, report it immediately to ebay as fraud.

    i can't speak for others ebay buying experiences from nunzio, but i have never had a single problem
     
  20. ferrari dino

    ferrari dino Karting

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    #45 ferrari dino, Jan 29, 2007
    Nunzio had a polite dispositon in his email communications with me. I have heard from others that they had experienced what synchro had encountered. It's extremely confusing but lets move on.

    wspeer. I've always wondered is that a rabbit or a kangaroo?
     
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