Frozen gearbox fill bolt

Yea.. I just bought a whole bunch of copper washers, but I have been thinking of going to a fiber or plastic washer like what has been successfully used in my American cars. Maybe its just my lack of experience with the copper washers, but it seems that it takes a lot of torque to get them to seat and with threads in cast aluminium, copper doesn't seem like the optimum solution.
Actually a tapered pipe plug would maybe be better.
I would like to understand why the european cars employ the use of copper washers.

 

Because they work and have worked for a long time.

The entire last half of this thread has been trying to fix what ain't broken. Steel plugs in aluminum with copper washers work just fine if the person installing it does not Fck up. If the installer is a Fck up nothing on Gods green earth will prevent that.

Do it the way it is supposed to be and everything will be fine. If you are the type that can break a steel ball maybe you should find a new hobby.

Sorry but not everyone is cut out to do this.

 

Rifledriver, thanks for the answer, but now I feel like a rhinoceros. The PO on my car had everything done at a reputable dealer, but my oil fill plug was a SOB to get out (had to remove the transfer gear cover & heat..).
I know the Europeans do not tighten things very tight, the 6mm trany sump cover bolts on my BMW are only supposed to be about 53 in pounds.
Next I am going to tighten the copper washered stuff in phases & see how loose they can be before they will leak.

Mark

 

Thanks y'all for the input.

Talking to some lubricant manufactures/synthesizers...they thought the problem we are seeing is galvanic corrosion due to the two differing metals. A proper anti-seize compond should prevent reoccurance.

I'm going to your suggestions a shot on Friday. Keep the fingers crossed.

Thanks again!

 

The copper works (first time only) because it is soft and maleable. Often when you tighten the drains you can hear a squeak/squeal when it is tight enough.

Over tightening results in the present challenges. Heating the 'bolt' should free things up.

I reuse my copper washers out of old habit. I just heat it cherry red for a minute, let it cool and Bob's-your-uncle you have a refreshed washer. Tighten just enough and no leaks.

Gerrit

 

I have seen and owned cars that have been worked on by people who wrenched everthing so GD tight you break sockets, twist off studs, snap bolts off, or strip the threads on every freakin bolt you try to turn. I have had other cars where seemingly EVERYTHING on the car was put on finger loose.

The problem with cars is that for some inherent reason, total dipstick idiots learn how to do some menial job, like change a wheel, or replace a muffler, and they suddenly assume they are Joe. Ace mechanic. Next they are wiring stereos into cars with electrical tape, cutting into battery cables for unfused power, cutting holes through steel bulkheads and drilling holes through sheet metal panels to run wires, without protecting them through grommets. They almost always install an "alarm system". I use the word "install" very carefully. If your lucky, you will still have a viable wiring harness left after you give the car a wirectomy.

Next thing ya know they are an engine mechanic. I have ran across more people that for whatever reason, refuse to read anything. If they knew what a torque wrench was, they wouldnt use one if their "mothers" life depended on it. These kinds of people cant be taught or told anything, because "they know it all". I once watched a friend I knew twist the studs out of an aluminum timing cover putting on a water pump. About a dozen studs. You would think the first one would teach you to ease up.

So when you see an add referencing the car is mechanic owned, or adult driven, well, take it with a grain of salt.

I once had a fill plug so tight I had to chisle, drill and use heat to get it out. They can be a real beach. whatever ya do, dont bung up the threads in the gearbox.

 

Paul,

Thank you for the useful advice.

I try to remind myself knowledge exists in three states:

Things I know...

Things I don't know...

and things I don't know that I don't know (the most important one).

Not all of us assume we know more than we should and are keenly aware of the reprecussions of trying harder, rather than smarter. Hence, the post on suggestions on removing the fill plug.

My intent with this post was....if there is some kind of reaction between dissimilar metals, why wasn't an aluminium plug used? I don't know if gear oil is considered an electrolyte and this is a result of electrolytic/galvanic corrosion...or just as stated, it was tightened too g-d tight?

Some anti-seize compound and proper torque sure goes a long way.

Thanks to all for the input...haven't had a chance to get her back on the rack to try some the options suggested.

 

Yeah, that last one is the primary one I think. And thats why I feel that anyone intelligent and educated enough to even want a Ferrari, can fix it themselves. I know many claim they have no mechanical aptitude, but IMHO, you dont need it. You can learn it.

To any of you who doubt me, go to a junk yard and buy a core engine. One that is blown or whatever. Bring it home and take it completely apart, clean it up, and put it back together. It dont have to run, thats not the point. The point is to learn nuts and bolts. To learn "how" to work on things. If you really want something that will teach you a lot about mechanics, buy an old pos SAAB 99 or a 900. With any luck, it will always be in some non running state, and you WILL learn how to fix it. For extra credit, do a valve adjustment on one be removing the cam. In fact, pull the motor out first and play with the timing chain. You make one of those bastards run again and no Ferrari will scare you off. And the best thing is that the older SAAB 99/900 cars drivetrain is very simular in layout to the 3X8 cars, ie the gearbox is the oil pan. Of all the cars I ever worked on, nothing ever frustrated me more, and simularly gave me as much satisfaction as making a SAAB run. Well, after the Ferrari of course. Even a Jag V-12 seems friendly after you work on a SAAB.

 

When I still had my shop I used to love Monday mornings

One time a Mercedes pulled in with horribly squealing brakes

Seem the owner had gone to MB parts on Friday, bought a set of pads and installed them himself Saturday

He almost got it right……..only thing wrong was the pads were in backwards, steel backing plate was against the rotors.

 

Well....I guess I didnt mean that they wouldnt have to read, LOL. Okay. maybe not "anyone".

 

Heat cures all. The best tool I have is my hand propane torch. Gentle heat to the aluminum casing around the plug, and then appropriate torque usually works. I like someones idea of bringing the engine to operating temperature, however, the plug will expand as well. One seeks differential expansion, as when heating the casing and not heating the plug.

Has anyone tried Teflon tape to 1) seal the plug and 2) prevent the reaction between incompatible metals?

Jim S.

 

LOL!!!

You might be asking a bit too much of the uninitiated. If dissecting an engine isn't the product of a burning need to know about them it might not teach much. Most "motorheads" that I know entered this phase of curiosity around age 15 and never stopped working it for the next 35 years.

A Ferrari 3x8 isn't the most difficult project but the parts are expensive enough and the documentation is sketchy enough to make it a little risky for a beginner to learn on.

 

Very true, and agreed. But if you assumed the cost of two 30K services at $8000-16,000 plus, you could bung up a few things pretty good and never come close to that amount. Plus, what you learn in the process is an education that you could never really purchase. Hands on experience will learn you the game 20 times faster than any school could ever teach you.

In addition, while its also true that many gearheads started young, some dont find the interest until much later in life. It is not uncommon to have guys in thier 30's or 40's that suddenly get turned on by something like a Ferrari. Its also been known that the first car some guys every really worked on was a Ferrari. Many times simply because they knew that was the only way they could afford keeping it. When a shop quotes you $8K for a 30K service, some of these guys blood suddenly runs cold.

 

I am close to what you are describing. For years I never ventured beyond very basic maintenance. I have no talent. And what little skill I have I has been hard fought or bestowed upon me by generous enthusiasts.

Having a Harley helped. Shims all over the place. Weird camfered spacers. I learned to go slow and take notes.

The 308 is in a whole other class. The workshop manual is basically a reference and often "wrong" as posted here many times.

Yet, this winter I replaced my belts, tensioners, adjusted valves, replaced cam seals, distributor seals, points, condensors, plugs, and plug wires. It may not be a perfect job. I couldn't have done it without this place. But, having done the work myself and somehow managed to get the car running again, I must say I have had few rides more satsifying than the one I had this afternoon.

Seamus

 

Seamus, cheers! You give me hope.

Tom, I've had mixed results with teflon tape and heat in the past. My success with anti-seize compound was much better.

 

There are 2 locations you can fill the trans, one is on top of the transfer case the other the overfill plug. You could just leave the stuck bolt in and fill the trans to the listed oil specs in the manual, there will be a slight amount of oil left in the trans so it will have a bit extra fluid in the trans but will not be enough to cause problems

its not corrosion but heat cycling the causes the plugs to stick

 

Heat cycling between dissimilar metals? Corrosion just didn't fit since we are talking about a lubricated gearbox...

Just so I am clear....the entire gearbox can be filled from the transfer case plug? Which is the 12mm hex plug located on the driver's side front of engine (aka transfer case .....

Maybe that is why some folks had more gear oil drain when all plugs are out than specified in the manual.

 

Yes it can be filled from the transfer case plug, actually easier IMO as you don't need to precisely measure the tranfercase fluid and add the fluid through the trans case plug as the trans oil finds its proper level that way as the excess enters the gearbox. Add up the gearbox oil capacity and transfer case capacity and add the oil via the transfer case fill plug

 

VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!

I thought I'd try one more time.....cold. Well, maybe 45 degrees. Actually I put less effort into breaking it cold, than trying earlier when the engine was warm.

Several folks tried when the engine was warm, on a rack with plenty of room to put some muscle in w/o doing any damage.

Thanks to all for the advice. Now for some Redline gear oil and a hopefully happier 2nd gear shift.

 

Please report back.

 

Downright buttery shifting into a cold 2nd gear....compared to before.

I'll take a picture of the gear oil that came out of car. I know I'm dating myself...but years ago they came up with a product called "slime". Not the tire sealant, but a gelatenous, gooey mess whose sole purpose was to annoy ones parents...

So far the Redline gets a two thumbs up.