328 prices...what's goin' on?

The current FML lists 9 328's for sale. 1 is 60k. 4 are above that. (1 is 85K).

At the risk of beating a dead horse (I know there's recent threads on this), but is this some sort of " bubble", are these people dreaming? Or are they bringing this much money? Dealers, and individuals alike seem to be offering these cars at about the same money as this.

65k for car, plus major, plus tax...(plus "incidentals" for an older car..that's the better part of 100k). I mean, wait a minute...is that a 360 I see in my future?

Thanks
Dave C.

ps I know there's 45k dollar cars out there too, but not with 15 - 20k miles on them.

I guess my real question is this...If you pay this kind of money, do these cars "come down" in value, kinda like my stock picks? hehe

 

FML also list current asking prices as steady for the past (last?) two years. I'm not seeing that at all.

 

There is a report out last summer in Forza about v8 Ferrari Prices. In it the 328s in Really good shape under 10k miles are valued at 75000 for an 89 and the 86 threw 88.5 are about 15k below that. That is an increase of 10k from the previous report summer of 05. So yes prices are moving up on the 89. The others dont have quite the refinement and were produced in more numbers. Remember there were only about 850 89s made. Im not sure if that number is for the US or worldwide. JJ

I just met a guy that recently purchased an 89 with 26k miles red tan for 57k you could have gotten that car for 10k less a year ago.

 

If you read the fifty "What is a good Ferrari" and "Ferrari 328 vs Ferrari X" threads and realize the universal praise that the 328 receives, the pricing trend is not surprising. I'm always eyeing 360s and 512 TRs but know I will miss the 328, so I'm in "add to the stable" mode vs. "trade" mode. Many others are in the same boat.

Anyways, it's clear to me and to plenty of others that the 328 prices, on their way up, are going to intersect 355 and 360 prices (on their way down). It's already a "sideways" financial trade compared to a large percentage of 348s. The cars have proven themselves reliable, balanced, adequately modern while still quintessentially Ferrari and having lines that appeal to a range of ages (read: timeless). Meanwhile they have little or no problem areas and maintaining them, I assure you, will cost you far less than a 360. I can handle scheduled $2,000 (minor service) and $4,000 (major service) maintenance at several year intervals, but the thought of dumping $10k unexpectedly into a new car (various "surprises" that are risked with 360 ownership) or $15k on valve guides and headers (355s) or $10k on an engine out tranny rebuild + syncros (worn 308) is scary and would take the fun out of ownership for me. These sorts of things don't happen on a properly maintained 328. This predictable maintenance (not cheap compared to a Honda but statistically the variance is low and the "mean" is known) bodes well for the value of these cars.

I don't think there's a lot of fluff in the 328 market; the car has the goods (and price appreciation potential) to back it up. The current asking prices may reflect the expectation of this price appreciation, as well. Now, I don't think 40k mile 328s are selling for 80k+ yet, but I am quite confident they will. These cars are far rarer than than all the modern cars (355s and 360s and others) and their survival rate is guesstimated at between 50% and 75% of original production.

Assuming fixed mileage, I would eat my hat if the average 328 dropped in market value. There is no "bubble." That the car maintains its value (and does not appreciate, except modestly with milage - and this may be offset by general appreciation overall) is a very nice aspect to ownership. I could get out of the game right now and basically have enjoyed Ferrari ownership for "free" (minus gas and a portion of the insurance, which ain't bad at all on 328s).

This is just my perspective - hope this helps.

--Mike

 

Hey Mike, I agree on your above post but I'm curious why you worry about the synchros on a 308 and not a 328. Its the same transmission and would wear the same way with the same mileage.

Birdman

 

Though I haven't looked at the 328's for sale in the FML, the one's I have seen that are $55k+ typically have less than 20,000 miles, some of them under 15,000 miles. For whatever reason, the "time capsule" examples are starting to see the light of day and sellers are able to ask high prices.

I think your math is a little off though. If you pay say $70k (price+tax) for a 328 with around 15,000 miles (this is the highest you should have to pay) and have a major done right after you get it (which for that price, you shouldn't have to get one for a few years), add some accessories, the total price will be around $75k max. If you add around 3000 miles over the next year and keep the car in the same condition as you buy it you will likely break even. The value will not depreciate.

As Mike328 mentioned, what's happening is you are beginning to see the price curve of the 328 catch up to later models and lower mileage 328's passing higher mileage 348's and 355's. It seems weird but look what happened to the Dino. Yeah, I know, lot fewer Dino's made. But a Dino will sell for more than a 360 F1, no matter what the mileage.

So, to answer your question, to compare to your stock picks, you are buying high. Actually, think of it like real estate, not stocks. If you are conservative with the miles and keep the car in great shape the value will remain or slightly go up. BUT, don't buy a Ferrari to make money. If you put it in a bond fund you will make more money every time.

-F

 

Asking price != selling price
Asking price != market value

Look at 82206, which as a low mile 89 is probably one of the upper end outliers price-wise:

2004, 1070 miles & fresh major, offered for $77,500
2007, 2949 miles & ANOTHER fresh major, offered for $79,500

The value held, but once you add in major costs the owner lost some money on this deal.


The other side of it, of course, is whether the low-mile car is actually usable as a car. Not trying to start a garage queen vs driver debate, but the next owner of 82206 would be financially foolish to use it on a regular basis. The only thing that distinguishes one 328 from another is mileage and condition. If I bought the thing and put 40,000 miles on it in 4 years, the value would drop to the 40s or below.

:shrug: different strokes for different folks. We're just seeing the widening value gap between golf course show cars and the drivers as the miles and wear-n-tear add up on 20 year old machines.

 

Aside from the ultra low milage example, all the others are at or around market asking price. So unless the entire Ferrari market takes a dive, these prices will hold.

Also, on the issue of milage, even if you buy a low milage example (say around 15,000) and you put around 3000 miles/yr on it, after 10 years you will still have a relatively low mileage version because just about everyone else (aside from the garage queens) will be putting on around the same malege. So in 10 years you will have a car with 35,000 miles while most everyone else will have a car with 70,000 miles. Speaking in general terms of course.

The point is, don't be afraid of buying a somewhat low milage car because if your yearly milelage is average it will always be a "low mileage" car.

Tillman's point about insanely low mileage cars is correct though.

-F

 

How much does milage affect the price of Dinos, or Daytonas? I realize the 328 has a long way to go before it reaches that territory, but I'm wondering if there comes a point where even medium milage and higher cars will appreciate as long as they are in good (excellent?) condition. I know the super low milage examples will still command the highest prices, but there isn't a Daytona on the planet that hasn't gone up in value (recent damage excepted) in the past 4 years.

 

No, not the same transmission. The same basic design, but many of the little bits inside--including, e.g., syncro blocks--have been updated. This is in general keeping of the notion of the 328 as an evolution of the 308.

This was first brought to my attention by Malcom at Ferrari of UK several years ago.

FYI: Before I got the 328, my old 308 pretty much would not go into 2nd or 3rd gear - I had already purchased the syncros and was getting ready for a $10k job to pull the engine and ship it off to Norwoods for a rebuild.


--Mike
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I don't mean to muddy the 328 waters, but what are the feelings on 308 prices riding the coat-tails of the 328 price increases? I think we would all agree that 308 prices have strengthened, what about the future of those as well?

 

I have no doubt that the 308 values are on the rise. I have noticed it in FML, car auctions and on ebay. THey ain't making any more, and the nice ones are getting pricey! I welcome it.

 

I've had an 89 GTB for 5+ years now. I got it out yesterday for its first drive of the season (been a long winter) and, as always, I was surprised at how great it drove, how enjoyable it was to drive and this was after getting my 430 out the day before. Maintenance wise, last year was pretty typical: I changed the oil.

Prices may be going up some, but these have not kept up with inflation. I bought my first 328 in 1997 ('87 R/T 33K miles) for just over 40K. Today a comparable car might sell for 45-47K. A well kept 53K example could sell for maybe a little over 40K today, so a long term owner would have just paid running expenses, still 60-70 cents/mile.

I paid 62K for my 89 in 2001 with 7K on it. Today with 22K on it and still excellent condition, I could probably get close to that, again nothing to get excited about. It doesn't matter to me anyway. Like my buddy Mike328, I plan to keep it and other Ferraris would have to be in addition to the 328, not in replacement of it. I sold my first 328 to buy a 348 and quickly missed the 328 badly, so I knew another would be in my future. Anecdotally, it seems that more and more of the really nice ones I know of are now in the hands of people who plan to keep them because they are great cars and no longer just stepping stones to later models. This may be contributing to price increases, at least for well kept cars.

Dave

 

Darn you! Still freezing here and 14 inches of snow expected today. Helps keep the milage low on my car.

 

That said then the few out there that are trying to sell cars they have should be asking higher prices because these cars dont change hands as often as one might expect. JJ

 

A little off topic but all of the exotic cars I've owned, the sight of the 328GTS always makes my heart skips a beat or two.....(even in the companies of many other modern high-end Ferraris). It's a timeless classic that will retain its value better others.

 

+1. Couldn't have said it better.

I'd also add that these cars aren't as common as many people post on FChat. If you want a red '89 GTS, no problem, as a couple hundred of them were socked away as investment cars during the Ferrari bubble that ended around 1990. But anything else is tough to find, and even a couple hundred garage queen '89s isn't a lot to go around.

(I only know this because I specifically wanted black or black metallic... and instead of weeks it took me most of a year to find a car.)

IMO, the '89 cars are overpriced and not as good a buy right now. Values are skewed because there are many more low mileage ones, whereas the early style ('86-'88) were mostly used up.

Not sure about the "buying high" part. I think 328s are a relative deal right now. IMO, the F355 has a way to fall, and obviously the 360 has even further to fall.

It all comes down to how easy it is to find a good example of a given car, and if I check some common sources - DuPont Registry, Newport European, Ferrari dealers, Sport Auto, Forza Motorsport, Motorcars, Premier, Naples Autosport, to name some - I see virtually no 328s for sale.

I would love to find a great 328 with under 15,000 miles for $55K. Please post the link or ad.

 

The weather is just starting to get nice here, but the wife won't ride to work with the top off when it's below 70 degrees....maybe by the weekend!

Doug

 

i guess i'll stop complaining about the 1 inch of snow we're getting. but we have gotten a ton of snow here this year.

 

Count me as one of those people. I got my 88.5 328 last fall and plan to keep it forever. I have very little interest in getting a newer model (or an older one, for that matter). I paid $50,700 for my 23k mile example and have stuck another $6800 in it for a major service and fixing minor nits and consider the $57,500 I have in the car a very reasonable amount. My insurance company appraised it and valued it at $60,000 so I think that's an unbiased reflection of the market.

 

I also got my 88.5 328 in December. For today it's a keeper but if in 2025 I can trade it in 1:1 for a brand new hybrid 750 bhp 899 CS I will definitely be tempted ;-)

 

I think that 88.5 cars are closer in price to 89 cars than 88 cars. Just my $.02.

 

I paid top $ for my 89 GTB ($69K) in 2006 because it had an excellent owner history (i'm the 3rd), the major service was just done as a condition of the sale, and the car only had 3300 miles. Put me into the, I will never sell this car, category. It took me over a year of looking to find it and I'm not letting it go. I expect there are other people like me waiting to find the right car and willing to pay top $ for it when they see it. The 328 was an easy choice for me for the following reasons:
1) I had $70K to spend
2) I didn't like the 348 (looks or maint issues)
3) A good 355 was just out of my price range

 

I think they are worth more I specifically looked for an 88.5 because I like the suspension updates and the convex wheels but didn't want ABS.

 

Mike,
Myself and others have been assembling a list of US GTB's. PM me and I'll send it along. For the record, I spent 18 months looking for my own GTB.

DAve