NOt so much equal cars but same tires would have been interesting...Michelin kicked ass in '05, Indy aside, and held the advantage until halfway through '06. Before the Michelins came good in '05 FA had only one GP win in 50+ starts.... One thing I do enjoy is the fact that there is one tire this year; don't like the rev limitation though...
05 and 06 were anything but straight up fights...especially 05...have we forgotten why the tire rule was changed going into that season?
I admit I forgot (my memory hasn't been very good since I gave myself a lobotomy). Please do tell... thanks
Alonso is not overhyped. He is currently the best in F1, but that won't help in a McClonk. I don't dislike Massa. I just don't get why so many on here are rooting for him. What has he ever done to have such a loyal fanbase other than sitting in the best car of 06 when MS had some bad moments?
give him some time Andreas, now that the Red Baron is gone, i think this is the appropriate time/season to judge Massa. Kimi and Massa are both similiar. both are race winners, and both haven't won any WDC ( yet ) . after all, many F1 insiders have given Massa good credits. Flav, Luca di Monte, Jean Todt, and yet even JV ( who critics everyone except himself ).
had to do with the red team winning too often, had to do with F-1 getting "boring". needed a drastic change. no tire changes during a race...???
They're "similar" in the sense that both are members of the human species. That's about it. Massa hasn't accomplished much other than won a few GPs sitting in the best car of the grid while his #1 driver had problems. Kimi OTOH got within a whisker of clinching the championship against Schumacher. Took it all the way to the last race. Number of victories: Massa 2 Kimi 9 Number championship points: Massa 107 Kimi 346 Average points per race: Massa 1.4 Kimi 3.2 How fast we forget.
Ohw come on! Where Kimi was in the McLaren from 2002 on, Massa got the good stuff only in 2006 and was sidelined in 2003. Kimi had obviously much more opportunity to score in a McLaren than Massa had in a Sauber. I don´t understand why you can´t get your head around the fact that Massa deliverd in 2006. Enough to convince Ferrari in hanging on to him and for the time being, he is faster then Kimi Raikkonen. You could give the guy at least a little bit of credit. Benefit of the doubt even. Sure, he is not the new Schumacher, but there is really no need to put him down every half of a chance you get.
Kimi and Massa started both at Sauber and only with one year difference. But look at what different paths their careers took. Who is to blame that Massa spent a lot of time at Sauber? The better driver got the better deal. Their careers are comparable and while one fought for the title the other even lost his racing status for a year and was relegated to test driver. Massa delivered in 2006? Hmm. How did you come to that conclusion? Given the fact that he used to sail off the track in the Sauber, yes he did better at Ferrari and only occasionally went off. But deliver? Barichello and Irvine had more victories in the Ferraris when they were Schumi's #2. I've said it before and I say it again: Look at Hungary and Monza 06 and tell me with a straight face that Massa impresses you. That he delivers and that he is championship material. You can't. And regarding Ferrari and keeping Massa: He was the cheap backup plan for Schumacher: Had Michael stayed on, the team would have only wasted 10 mio on their test driver. A relative cheap insurance if you don't know whether your current #1 will stay or not. BTW: I really like Massa, even have a signed picture of him in my collection. It's just that I don't understand all the support he gets on here, that's all.
That is exactly the reason why their careers AREN´T comparable. There is an obvious reason for the difference in the statistics and I was pointing that difference out. Sure, Kimi was fast from the very beginning, but Massa surely has improved big time. I suggest that if and when you´d want to compare Massa to Kimi, you compare the 2007 Massa to the 2007 Kimi. I´ll let you in on a little secret: Even Schumacher (yes, Michael) has had horrible races. The final races in 2005 for instance. Massa has had them as well, as well as simply brilliant races. He was unbeatable in Turkey and no match for the rest of the non-Ferrari drivers in Brazil. Those were Schumacher-esque wins and you don´t get to win F1 GP´s in such a fashion when you don´t have what it takes in F1. Do I think that Massa is championship material? Sure, why not? If the F2007 indeed is the package to beat, then his only competition for the title is Kimi and for now I don´t see why Massa wouldn´t be up to that challenge. Either Kimi needs the entire winter to adapt and perhaps even the early races in the season, or Massa has indeed the potential to beat Kimi (albeit by the slightest of margins). Boy, will Kimi have a bad time when it turns out that Ferrari´s ´cheap solution´ is actually able to keep up with him, and I don´t even want to think of the situation in which Massa is faster than Kimi, a situation that is reality to this far. And then we have the insiders. Alonso stating that Massa and Kimi are on par. Villeneuve who rates Massa higher than Kimi, Montezemolo and Ecclestone saying that they can see Massa taking the title. Are they all talking nonsense? Have they all poor judgement for not agreeing with your obvious point of view that Massa is pretty disposable as a driver? Could it be a possibility that you are actually wrong in your negativity towards Massa? He drives for Ferrari, he is a nice guy and very quick behind the wheel of a F1car. The REAL question is, why would anyone, supporting the Ferrariteam, not support Massa?
I hope you did not try your own vasectomy. Losing memory is one thing, but losing the only reason to live, well.............
I can not speak for everyone else, but I do not think that anyone here is "demoting" Kimi in order to elevate Felipe. I gave you my reasons earlier why I think Masssa will prevail in 2007, but after a year of getting to know the car, the tires, and getting accepted by his Italian crew, Kimi will show that he is the faster of the two. And that he is also better than Alonso. Another reason many people like Massa, he has not yet opened his mouth and said something derrogatory or stupid, as has Alonso. I just think that Alonso backed into one of those world championships not on skill but because there was no other competitive team. I still believe he is overrated.
That's like saying Schumacher backed into 5 championships at Ferrari because there was no other competitive team...
I would say that in 2-3 of those years that would be correct. Even with that, MS still is way ahead of everyone else.
+1, another reason why Coulthard was such a Chump in the 01 season when initially he had a more reliable car in the beginning of the season than Hakkinen.
KIMI VS MASSA KIMI 2001 SAUBER 10TH 9PTS 0 WINS 2002 McLAREN 6TH 24 PTS 0 WINS 2003 2ND 91 PTS 1 WIN 2004 7TH 45 PTS 0 WINS 2005 2ND 112 PTS 7 WINS 2006 5TH 65 PTS 0 WINS MASSA 2002 SAUBER 13TH 4 PTS 0 WINS 2003 FERRARI TEST DRIVER 2004 SAUBER 12TH 12 PTS 0 WINS 2005 13TH 11 PTS 0 WINS 2006 FERRARI 3RD 80 PTS 2 WINS The only time both drivers had competitive cars was 2006. Massa third, Kimi fifth. We will find out who is better in 2007 when they are both in the so-called "same" car. I don't really care who finishes first, just as long as it's a Ferrari one and two.
The reason for the different statistics is because they got different cars. True. The reason for different cars are because team managers (rightfully) assessed their talents. It is a bit arbitrary what you drive in your first year in F1, but real talent always bobbles to the top. 1 year for Kimi at Sauber, 1 year at Minardi for Alonso, 1 race for MS at Jordan. See a pattern? I sure will and enjoy the numbers. You didn't get my point: Yes, everybody has bad races, but my point was that Hungary showed us that Massa is clueless in the wet (MS lapped him) and Monza showed us that he can't pass. He lacks aggressiveness or imagination, don't know which one. Whereas the Kimster has superb car control, be that on the grass or in the wet. Kimi also knows how to pass, Suzuka on Alonso comes to mind. BTW: What I never hear from the Massa fans is one unique strength he has: IMHO he is the best starter in the field. Even on Saubers he managed to pass a few cars as the lights went out. That's actually very cool. You compare his Brazil drive to the Schue, I wouldn't. Schuey was a super talent, Massa is a typical test driver: He can drive fast and clean (I give him both of those) when in front. Just like Damon Hill. But he is lost in traffic, because test drivers aren't used to that. Just like Damon Hill. Alonso said it to throw a monkey wrench into Ferrari's "non existing" (yeah right) team order. Villeneuve said it so he doesn't look so bad in hindsight because Massa was his teammate. Ecclestone says it because it is a much better story to tell than to say what everybody else knows and believes, which is that Kimi will make it. Sensationalism sells F1, not the status quo. I didn't hear what Montezemolo said, so I can't comment. And it is not about what I believe, but pretty much everybody I know or read about. People give Massa credit, no doubt, but I know nobody (outside of FChat) who would even consider Massa for the title. And my friends have been following F1 for many years just like me. PS: In case I'm wrong and Massa wins the title instead of Kimi: I'll be celebrating just as much. Doesn't matter since either will be a first time champion AND a Ferrari driver. I just don't think that'll happen. PPS: Last year (before Massa even won) I was seriously contemplating to have my helmet painted in his colors. Simply because he was a Ferrari driver and an outsider. So please don't say I'm a Massa hater or such thing. As I said, his signed pic is prominently displayed amongst my Ferrari collection.
Not true. Word in the pits after the last round of preseason testing is that Massa is the favorite for the title by virtually every driver. The other teams think that Raikkonen will have serious problems trying to mesh with an Italian crew that knows he does not get involved with development, and that will cost him. And they should know, they are there watching each other like hawks. Also, you seem to dwell on Massa's mid-season performance, and not the end of the season that was substantially better. And your comments about Massa's driving in the wet, seems logical it could have just the same been the wrong chassis set-up and not his lack of wet driving ability as you want to believe. We just do not know, so anything is just a guess.
An aside: Based on what I saw last year the races in the wet were much more exciting. Maybe ALL the races should be done in the wet...sprinklers or something... Ha
I don't think Kimi will struggle that much at the beginning. He will need time to adjust to the new car / team but he's a top driver...he will go fast straight away. JPM, Rubens, Ralf, Fisi etc all had troubles but not Kimi..well I hope so... Kimi had no experience whatever by Formula 3 or Formula 3000 + had troubles getting his super-license from the FIA because of his lack of experience in Formula....but he still made it and he impressed the F1 world. Massa ...what to say.. Test driving for Ferrari really helped him....2nd half of the 2004 season he started showing some signs that he can compete in F1. I still think he is inconsistent, can't pass, poor ability in wet conditions..He's a good driver....but he's still a class B type of driver to me. He has improved a lot ...but can he fight for the WDC now? We'll find out!
No I don't because Kimi still has something to prove. I do agree that real talent always find it's way to the top, as has Massa and the fact that it hasn't come easy for him only shows that he has improved massively. There are more worldchampions who weren't at the top of their game in their second or even third season. It is totally ridiculous to assess a driver on exactly one race. Hungary showed is that Massa had a terrible race there and that the Bridgestone-tyre was way off. Schumacher is exceptional in the rain. Spa, 2003. Villeneuve and Massa approaching Eau Rouge. Massa taking the inside line, not prepared to back off. In the end, right before the uphill climb, Villeneuve chickened out and Massa was through. Don't tell me Massa can't pass and certainly don't tell me he lacks aggresiveness. Again, you pick one race and make a final assessement on an aspect of Massa's driving, failing to even consider that the way his Monza-race went could be attributed to other factors, such as nature of the track, the tires, the strategy. I've seen Kimi *** up once or twice. No need to put him away on the base of those few instances. That's the first honest remark I've seen you make about Massa yet. I do not agree (Massa is litteraly lightyears ahead of Damon Hill, and even he got to be WC), but still. you don't know why Alonso said anything. He said Kimi and Massa are on par. You dispute that. Great. I still believe Alonso has a better view upon the situation. Perhaps I am funny that way. Again, they all have a better position to be judging Massa and they all seem to be judging him far more positive than you are. You can go passed their remarks by suggesting there is some other motive behind them, but I don't think that that is helping the discussion, so I'll leave it at that. Puzzeling. You only just compare Massa to Damon Hill. You forgot Damon Hill too the title a little over ten years ago? Wouldn't that be a little bit hypocritical? You are a Massa-hater. I am astouned that you would even want to deny it. I have no problem with critics. Everybody is one. I do have a problem with people putting a driver down without any nuance whatsoever. It just doesn't make sense. Ferrari, the biggest team in the biggest racingseries in the world, would hire a driver who is no more than a decent testdriver, to race on of their F1cars all around the world. Your assumption. I'd rather put a little more faith in both the team in selecting Felipe Massa and Felipe Massa and his skills to put our beloved Scuderia on top.
That same team tried to replace Massa with two separate drivers. He was apparently not their top choice for the seat. Schumacher announced his retirement at Monza. Who, among the top drivers, was available at that time? Perhaps Ferrari re-signed Massa because they had no choice?
we're talking Ferrari here. Ferrari can pick out whoever they want. This team didn't even consider Alonso. Just pay a little attention.
