Massa

Exactly, his advantage is that he is one of two development drivers of the new F2007. And this includes Bridgestone knowledge.

 

LOL! The irony is priceless!

RON: "I am right! You are all wrong! None of you know as much as I do!!!! If you think you do, then you are ARROGANT"

Priceless!

Let's hear again about how Danica is one of the premier drivers in IRL, Ron!

 

Al I do is pass on info that I get from friends in connected places in F1. Read the Peter Windsor article, if you think you know more than him, I will start to quote you.

As for Danica, let's see how she does on the new team.

 

+1

The thing is, people like Massa... the "good guy", the buddy to everyone, the emotional guy who will probably cry if he wins a WDC, the team player, the humble guy. Kimi has zero personality. Of course everyone wants the underdog to win, especially when he's so nice and so likeable.

When we saw testing results showing Massa was fast (often putting down better times than Kimi), a lot of people fixated on that and were convinced "their guy" Massa was the quicker driver. Some people are pretty stubborn and can't admit a mistake, so of course they were not wrong, it's just a big conspiracy against their driver of choice (riiiiiight).

I don't see anyone slamming Massa. I've said it before and so have others - he's a nice guy. He just isn't the #1 driver, he isn't as fast as Michael and he isn't as fast as Kimi. He isn't the favorite of the team and he isn't ever going to be the #1 driver, unless he develops a serious boost of skill over this year, which just won't happen. But he will still be a nice guy.

The assertion by some that the team favors him and he has some edge there is laughable. Like the mechanics are going to do a better job for him than Kimi - yeah, right.

Massas performance was not bad. It was typical of a #2 driver in the fastest car on track. "Oh, what do you expect him to do"... well, let's see... Kimi had a very similar situation last year in the Australian GP - he had a failure and started at the back. He finished on the podium, chasing Alonso and Michael. He was beating Schumi until the last pit stop. Contrast to Massa who was a lap down - not even close to getting a podium finish. Thats the difference right there. Thats why Kimi is the #1 driver, and that's why Kimi is such a talent.

Of course those of us who don't have the personal cell phone #'s of the race engineers and consult with Todt on race strategy like Ron does don't know anything and are just arrogant for thinking that the 2 seconds/lap difference could be anything other than blind luck on Kimi's part.

 

So can you give us some more detailed descriptions about your "contacts"? It's cool if you really have them, but if you only refer to them in this way when your making a point, it makes you sound rather pompous.

 

Read the Peter Windsor article thread, "Massappeal". Keep in mind, some people should not be talking. I take the info as being "sourceless", until as in as in this article someone makes public statements. All I am trying to do is pass on info that I thought some of you would find interesting. From the ongoing flak, guess I am wrong.

 

Who are these friends in connected places? I have a few customers who supply parts to some of the teams - they know about as much as I do about the teams, but they are 'connected' too. Knowing someone who knows someone who is "involved" in F1 is not exactly having the inside line. Re-read Tifosi (Andreas') post - its facts, not speculation. "Trust me, I have an inside source" is the most obscure and least reliable argument one can make. Especially when what we SEE and OBSERVE is vastly different than what the messenger of the connected guy tells us.

As for Danica, she must have Reubens-itis. If only she had a new car, a new mechanic, a bit more luck, etc, etc, etc, she would have won.

Reminds me of anyone I've ever beaten racing.... "If I had my new tires, and my tranny wasn't clunking, and I wasn't dropping a cylinder, and I didnt miss that shift". Blah blah blah. Results are what matter. In IRL, Danica is lacking sorely in that regard. In F1, Massa isn't fit to be Kimi's waterboy when you are comparing actual results. Kimi has proven himself time and time again and 99% of the world knows the score. Just that last 1% is holding out because they have the romantic notion of the emotional Ferrari underdog driver winning against the cold heartless McLaren man.

We'll see how the situation changes as the races go on, and Massa falls further and further behind Kimi. Start thinking up excuses now, Massa proponents, you're gonna need a lot

 

Back to the original question. I think people don't like Massa because he wasn't as fast as MS, so he is an easy target. Also I think the perception is that if he was faster he would help more in the Constructors the last few years. Scapegoat. He did great at Melbourne. He passed 13 cars I think. Someone asked why a 1 stop strategy? While everyone is pitting, he can pass. I want to know how many he passed on track vs in the pits. Anyone?

 

Mike, may be off topic but to your point on danica...i agree and actually wonder where she musters up all that testosterone as she never even won a pro atlantic race to my knowledge. she is almost unbearable to listen to in an interview!!!

 

I understand that Ron can't name his source. But I can assure you, that he isn't bluffing. I happen to have one too, but for obvious reasons can't name that person either. The funny thing is, that Ron knows about my source but pretends he is still the only one with insight knowledge.

Speaking of: I don't claim any insight knowledge. As I said elsewhere I don't really give too much on my source as that person is way too much into his field of expertise and misses the bigger picture. Also if I ever get a good piece of information, I can't really post that on here unless it is already public knowledge. I think Ron has a similar deal. Before this source I had some others in past years and the outcome was very similar.


Regarding Massa: The picture I'm getting from my source after Melbourne is quite different from before Melbourne or from what Ron claims. But that was quite obvious if you just look at the team's reaction after the victory.

Anyway, nuff of that "insider source" thing. It does sound pompous and quite frankly who needs them when you can watch live TV?

Reminds me of a movie with Danny de Vito: "Lawyers are like war heads. You need them because the other side has them too."

 

Like I said, read the Peter Windsor article. I stick by what I have been saying about Massa. Andreas' post has no more fact than any other post. And I would disagree with his comment about the internal opinion of the Ferrari team concerning Massa. What I heard, "from a good source", is that the team felt they let him down, and that his performance was excellent.

 

That's a few times I heard the Race engineer for MS is now at Kimi's side.

 

That same engineer stated last week before Melbourne that he was concerned about the communication between the team and Kimi. He said they knew what Michael would do in a particular situation, but they have no idea what Kimi will do.

 

According to visionf1:

Massa starts from P22:

Lap 1: Massa passed Liuzzi, Albers, Davidson, and Sutil ON TRACK, P18

Lap 2: Massa passed Speed ON TRACK, P17

Lap 3: Massa passed Wurz ON TRACK, P16

Lap 6: Massa passed DC ON TRACK, P15

Lap 17: Massa passed Button ON TRACK, P14. He and Rubens were stuck behind Button for a while. Once Rubens got by Jenson, it took Felipe a couple laps as well.

Lap 20: Massa passes Rubens during Ruben's PIT STOP, P13. No traffic in front or behind Massa.

Lap 23: Massa passes Webber during Webber's PIT STOP, P12. No traffic in front or behind Massa.

Lap 25: Massa passes Ralf and Sato during their PIT STOP, P10.

Lap 26: Massa passes Trulli during Trulli's PIT STOP, P9. Laps Sutil.

Lap 28: Massa passes Rosberg and Kovaleinen during their PIT STOP, P7.

Lap 30: Massa PITS, passed by Ralf, Rosberg, Kovaleinen, Trulli, Wurz, Sato, falls to P13.

Lap 31: Massa passes Sato, Wurz, Trulli ON TRACK, P10

Lap 37: Massa passes Kubica because of DNF, P9.

Lap 38: Massa lapped by Kimi.

Lap 41: Massa passes Kovaleinen ON TRACK, P8.

Lap 43. Massa passes Rosberg during Rosberg's PIT STOP, P7. Passes Kimi during Kimi's pitstop. Back on lead lap.

Lap 46: Massa passes Ralf during Ralf's PIT STOP, P6.

Lap 50: Massa laps Davidson on track.

Lap 51: Massa laps Button on track.

Lap 53: Massa laps Liuzzi on track.

Lap 55: Massa laps Sutil on track, stuck behind Fisi battling for 5th place.

Lap 58: Massa laps Webber on track, finishes race stuck behind Fisi. P6


Massa wasn't in traffic most of the time. Only when Button was holding back Felipe and Rubens near the beginning. After that, Massa was by himself. You can actually see Kimi catching up to him rather quickly around lap 35 (pass is on lap 38). http://www.visionf1.com/#

Passes on track (12): Liuzzi, Albers, Davidson, Sutil, Speed, Wurz (twice), DC, Button, Sato, Trulli, Kovaleinen.

Passes because of DNF (1): Kubica

Passes because of pitstops (9): Rubens, Webber, Ralf (twice), Rosberg (twice), Sato, Kovaleinen, Trulli.

 

I don't think the Massa's doubters "hate" him because he isn't as fast as Schumacher. They just don't think that Massa is as good as Kimi, which is what the pro-Massa folks are trying to convince. Opinions from "insiders" or Pete Windsor and the like are great, but until Massa beats Kimi on the track or in the points, those "insiders " pro-Massa opinions are just as wrong as anybody else. So far, Kimi:1. Massa:0.

 

Andreas, I hve no idea who your source is. And I do not believe I ever told you about my sources, unless the reason that drink that tasted funny I had with you in Indy last year was because of something you put in it? But them some may be obvious.

As for Melbourne, the team was excited that Kimi performed, but would have given Massa the same greeting had he won. Having Massa relegated to last on the grid took away the internal competition they had wanted to make both drivers even faster. They believe the biggest competition all year will be Kimi vs Phil, not Ferrari vs Alonso vs anyone else. The team principals want to use that to their advantage. And there is the comraderie that Phil has with his engineer and mechanics, they want him to be WDC. Kimi still has to learn to have a few glasses of wine, Italian wine, with his team. I think you understand that concept.

P.S. Live TV is only the surface. Behind the scenes is better, but then you need "sources" for that.

 

P.S.S. Ridiculously snide comments like this one is part of the reason why the other forum members are getting testy with you. In the past you have masked them well, but not well enough. At least you painted a picture of yourself for us with that one.

"Discretion is the better part of valour."
-William Shakespeare

 

of course they don't have history as they did w/ ms...kimi is brand new to them!!!

 

good post Ron.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. Andreas and I know each other so we can joke like this. He knows full and well I do not take his jabs seriously, not does he take mine. I suggest you ask before you make such snide accusations*.

*That was not a joke. :}

 

Repeated concerns of Kimi's ability to communicate with the team.

He won without a radio.

 

I don't know what I'm talking about, and you seem to be completely aloof that your comments are riling everyone up regardless of who they're intended. We've all got "contacts" in various places Ron, be it F1 or some third-world country's corner market.

 

Let's all take a deep breath and chill a bit.

Isn't it fantastic, that our biggest "problem" right now is, whether Kimi or Massa is the better driver? Isn't it great, that we don't have to lament the FIA for screwing us with a new tire rule or fear some mighty competitor?

Imagine if you were a die-hard Honda fan for instance. Not much to celebrate there. And even as a McLaren fan you'd probably be scratching your head after Melbourne wondering whether this year will bring anything good.

Forza Ferrari!

 

+1

I don't hate Massa, from everything I read about him he sounds like a very nice guy. I think of him in the same way I think of Fisi, nice guy but I don't want him driving for me.

My argument regarding Massa is that there is a certain contingent on these boards who vastly overestimate his capabilities ontrack. I have no problem with Massa as a driver, anyone who makes it to F1 by very definition is an exceptional talent.

My argument is that Massa is not nearly a good enough driver to deserve a seat with Ferrari. He has yet to demonstrate that he is anything other than a midpack driver who has been very fortunate to be in an exceptional car. Massa has done nothing that Irvine or Rubens hadn't done before him and neither of them proved to be anything other than mediocre once they left the team. There is no reason whatsoever to assume Massa is any different. Furthermore, Massa has yet to outpace his teammate, any teammate, in any car. Until he is able to domonstrate that he is competitive against a teammate, let alone faster, then I have absolutely no belief that he is doing anything other than taking up a seat that by right should go to a more competitive driver.

So, the short answer to your question is that no one here "hates" Massa, myself included, but many of us here question whether Massa has the talent to be anything other than a #2 driver and is deserving of a Ferrari seat and whether the seat ought to go to a more competitive driver. This is the crux of the debate.

 

+1

i find it pretty amazing we're all debating about something like whose faster...we're not debating bout prost and senna here, but kimi and massa, both of whom have achieved nothing IMO.

just sit back, let the season enfold and enjoy a beer together