Forza Timing Belt Kit | FerrariChat

Forza Timing Belt Kit

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by RussF, Apr 5, 2007.

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  1. RussF

    RussF Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    222
    Washington
    Nick's Forza site advertises a new timing belt and tensioners that it says are "adjustable", good for 60k miles etc. It also says the system uses a new modern G2 style timing belt. Does anyone know anything about that G2 belt?
     
  2. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    SMG
    Yep ;) as the designer of them I can answer any questions you have. the GT2 belt is the newest of gates belt designs, it's a interference belt, which means it was designed for motors that will run pistons into valves if the timing belt breaks, not something we want so construction is different. the profile is also updated to remove lash, eliminate ratcheting i.e. jumping and run quieter, Gates lists the belt to run for 100k but suggests changing it at around 80k. The belt we're using for this kit is currently spec'd for the Mitsubishi Evo motor.

    couple threads for background
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92021&highlight=adjustable+pulley
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93723&highlight=adjustable+pulley
     
  3. RussF

    RussF Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    222
    Washington
    Thanks SMG. What does adjustable mean in the Forza ad? Also does your post mean that the Mitsubishi EVO belt fits a Ferrari 328?
     
  4. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    can you direct me to the link relating to new cam/belt kits for reading: sounds interesting ..
     
  5. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    the adjustable part is that you no longer have to pull the pin to adjust your timing, simply loosen the 5 bolts and rotate the desired amount.

    the belt is not interchangeable to the Ferrari motors directly, the belt profile of the new design is curvilinear whereas the Ferrari belt is trapezoidal. the spacing of the teeth is different as well.
     
  6. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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  7. todd6363

    todd6363 Formula Junior

    Jan 20, 2007
    270
    Ohio
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    Todd
    I purchased my bearings, belts, new water pump, everything for a 30,000 service from nick. Everything but the adj. belt kit. Going to upgrade my ign. with his stuff before I get the adj. belt tensioners. Found his advice helped alot. Good man to do biz. with. Would trust any product he sells.
     
  8. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,081
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    Mike Charness
    #8 Mike C, Apr 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    What about retentioning? If you have to replace a can seal or something, do you need a new belt?
     
  10. airdelroy

    airdelroy Formula Junior

    May 10, 2007
    420
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Richardson
    Dont the tensioner bearings still need to be replaced at the regular recommended intervals (30k miles or 3 yrs) with this new belt system?

    thanks,
    Aaron
     
  11. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
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    Feb 24, 2006
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    Mike
    $2000 for the kit, is this also for the QV?
     
  12. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
    2,800
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    F683
    This kit would be perfect if it came with camshaft oil seals that lasted 60,000 miles! Very nice looking parts.

     
  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    There's versions of the kit for all the 2V & 4V engines.

    I bought one of the initial prototype sets. I'll be installing it this winter as it's the 1st belt change since I bought the set.

    I haven't heard that the SB recommending 3 year belt changes also specified changeing tensioner bearings per se. I live in cool NE, don't track the car, & only put 2K - 3K miles/year on it. I've chosen to change my belts, tensioner bearings, etc. at 5 year intervals. I probably won't change the interval with the new system, as I'm not comfortable with ANY belts lasting much beyond 5 years. This is where most of the car mfgs are at these days for belt change intervals ie: 60K miles at 12K/year is 5 years. Yes, there are a few cars with longer intervals, but I'll stay with the average.

    Tensioner bearings are sealed ball bearings, so their life is primarily limited by how long the factory installed lube holds up. Lube life is mostly a function of temperature, so we're back to driving conditions. I'm going to be very interested to see what the lube in my tensioner bearings is like when I pull them off. My expectation is that I'll find the tensioner bearings & their lube in very good shape. However, the bearings will be 5 years old, I'm not willing to trust them to last for another 5 years, so I'm replacing them.

    If I were in AZ's 100+ degree heat, &/or driving a lot more miles/year, I'd be on a 3 year interval with the current belt system. My concern would be the tensioner bearing's life as much as the belts. Would want to see what my tensioner bearings looked like after 3 years before I'd consider stretching beyond that with the new belt system.

    Good question on whether or not the belt can be retensioned.
    smg2, any info from Gates on retensioning???

    In the absence of input from Gates to the contrary, I'm going to assume no retensioning. While the belt tooth design & rubber are significantly improved, the belt fibers are what have to deal with the stress of retensioning & I doubt that they're also radicly stronger. I can't imagine a reason for retensioning without having removed the belts. I need the belt covers off to properly adjust belt tension & verify the adjustment. If I've gone to the work of getting in there to remove the belt covers, I'm going to change the belts as I've done 98% of the work. The belts are cheap, & so are the tensioners. By replacing them, I'm resetting the belt change clock/mileage - a no-brainer!!!

    As for camshaft oil seals lasting 60K, there's no reason that they won't last that long if properly installed. My experiencs has been that they either start leaking in the first year or two, or they last indefinitely. IMHO, the early failures are installation related. Yes, I've had some of my installations leak, and when I redid them I found where I'd messed up. You can even see some of this in my posts in the old fchat.
     
  14. Air_Cooled_Nut

    Air_Cooled_Nut Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2004
    952
    Portland, Oregon
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    Toby Erkson
    Kind of defeats the purpose of the kit if you're sticking to the Ferrari recommended change intervals. Those intervals were for the belts of that time/technology. A lot can happen in 20+ years! I seriously doubt the belts will stretch any significant amount...likely to break apart first.

    My experience is that I created a generator to alternator swap for my old (non-Italian) car. The stock generator had shims you could insert/remove inbetween the pulley halves to slacken/tighten the belt. With my alternator swap, I use a modern Goodyear belt and the alternator pulley is solid. I've constantly been asked why I didn't include a way to tension the belt. My reply is that it's not necessary because the modern belt doesn't stretch enough to warrent it! The belt I'm running is 11+ years old and is still keeping the correct belt deflection. Car was a daily driver for about 5 of those years, then became a summer car (like most Ferraris ;) ).

    My other German cars use belts and they are good for 60K+ miles as well. Using modern belts. IMO I don't think you have to worry with the low miles you put on yours.
     
  15. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,913
    USA
    I can understand why Verell and other owners may like to do it; just for the added insurance, ability to adjust the cam timing, and eliminating the plastic cam pulleys.
     
  16. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    I want to know about the paint on Nick's motor.... is that candy powder coat? spray on? interesting colors....
     
  17. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Mostly for the insurance & overall confidence in the system. I've always regretted not being able to buy one of Ed Gault's cam gear sets.

    I have the only QV I've ever heard of with the plastic cam gears. However, they seem to still be in very good condition, last time I measured some of the teeth I could'nt detect any wear. I actually think they've held up better than some of the badly rusted metal pulleys I've seen recently.

    I do recognize that belt technology has come a long way since the late '60s when the 308 belt system was designed. The modern belt tooth profile and belt materials are less likely to skip teeth or fail within my belt service interval. So I regard this particular upgrade as keeping my motor close to state of the art.

    I'm not likely to use the adjustable feature unless I get thoroughly frustrated with trying to locate the right pair of holes when installing a new belt(been there). For one thing as long as I keep the belt covers & A/C, I can't access the adjustable feature.
     
  18. Air_Cooled_Nut

    Air_Cooled_Nut Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2004
    952
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Toby Erkson
    Ah, good points. Thanks for the reminder! :)
     
  19. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
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    Charles
    SMG--Since you designed this, why is everying paying the 50% markup and buying them from Nick? Why are you not selling them direct?
     
  20. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
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    Art
    Will these work on the Mondial t? If not, do they plan to make a kit for the 348, 355 motors?

    Art
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Hey guys,
    production for round 2 is underway. I had a bunch of you e-mail me to get in line, I have 20 sets under way, 10 per version, 2valve and 4valve. anyone else interested e-mail me at the shop.
    [email protected]
    final cost is $1600 for the set with belts, you can buy throuh nick as he's packaging them with his tensioners.


    as for the 348/355 I'm working on those too, next yr. the 348 will be first as I'm also working on a 'boost' project too.
     

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