Rebuilding 308 2V cylinder heads | FerrariChat

Rebuilding 308 2V cylinder heads

Discussion in '308/328' started by louthancomp, Mar 12, 2007.

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  1. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
    87
    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #1 louthancomp, Mar 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I recently posted a thread in the 348/355 forum that walked through the valve guide replacement I was doing on a pair of 355 heads. I got a lot of positive response by people who appreciated the information and the pictures. I'm just finishing a pair of 308 heads and thought I'd share the project on here.
    These got the full deal including new valve guides, porting, custom valves, and new exhaust seats to accommodate the new exhaust valves.
    The new guides are manganese bronze. The valves are stainless and the intake is 2mm oversized while the exhaust is 1 mm smaller (which is why I needed a new valve seat with a smaller inside diameter). The only reason I would go to a smaller exhaust valve is to insure the valves don't interfere with each other as they are already close and they open toward one another. Even with the smaller valve I was able to increase the flow in the exhaust port. The intake valve is 2mm larger than stock and has a 30 degree face rather than the stock 45. 30 degree seats flow more air at low lift and with stock cams these heads only have a little over .300" valve lift. I'm not going to publish my flow numbers on here but I can provide it to anyone who's really interested. We're expecting around a 20 H.P. increase.

    If we decide to replace valve springs and upgrade to titanium retainers, the bill on these heads will be right at $3850 for parts and labor and will be ready to bolt on the engine before they leave the shop. The job will take a little less than 2 weeks from the time I received them.
    There's more info on my website: www.FerrariPerformance.com
    Enjoy!
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  2. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Thanks for sharing the excellent pics
     
  3. rizzo308

    rizzo308 F1 Rookie
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    Sep 12, 2004
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    riggio
    excellent post........ i will be replacing my head gaskets in couple of monthswhy not go the hole hog!!!!!

    would you be able to price for me please...

    8 s/s inlet valves..
    8 s/s ex valves..
    16 m/bronze guides..
    8 i/let seats...
    8 ex seats...
    new v/springs
    new titanium retainers
    thanks for the info regards rizzo
     
  4. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Way cool...thanks for posting that....nice work....

    All of us with the old 2Vs will face this job one day......sounds like a good value for peace of mind, to me.....

    If only they weren't so hard to break loose! LOL!
     
  5. Mark 308 gt4

    Mark 308 gt4 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2006
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    Mark Taviner
    Very interesting, thanks for posting it.

    Mark
     
  6. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    That is poetry. Beautiful.
     
  7. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
    87
    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    You mean to break the heads lose from the block? Yes, I've heard they're really on there. The first pair of these I ever worked on, the owner drove a wedge between the intake manifold and head to get it off... I had to weld and resurface the intake side of both heads to repair the damage he caused. Fortunately he figured that out before he did the same thing to the deck. He built some sort of puller to get the heads off. Them must be some sticky head gaskets! LOL
     
  8. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    I noticed that on mine as well and looking into a bit further it's the alignment of the studs to the holes in the manifold that make it problematic, then with poor casting and heat cycling it makes it worse.
     
  9. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    #9 maurice70, Mar 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I had that work done to mine as part of the rebuild but didn't over size the valves.I replaced the sodium valves with SS.I still remember what a PITA removing those heads were.We used a puller in the end.The problem was the corrosion build up around the studs.Here are some before and after pics.
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  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Per JRV....

    "They are on there, stuck tighter than the Gates of He11....."

    We'd hang the whole engine from them on a chain, soak the corroded studs a few DAYS, then go to work on them CAREFULLY...........

    So people wondered why it took a week to pull them .....LOL!
     
  11. 4RE42

    4RE42 Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2006
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    Nice pics. More would be nice.
    mb
     
  12. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    I'm just curious, why make the intake valves larger and the exhaust smaller? Why not just leave them stock sizes? Is the stock intake valve too small?
     
  13. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Yes - it is not optimal for performance. There is an optimal ratio of intake to exhaust, and the stock sizes are a little off wrt to exhaust.

    Flow, flow, flow.
     
  14. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Robert Louthan
    that's a relative question... too small for what? A bigger valve almost always moves more air and this head is pretty poorly designed IMO. It is after all 30 year old technology. Our knowledge of port design has come a long, long way in just the last 20 years. Increasing the valve size does move more air, which in turn increases volumetric efficiency, which increases cylinder pressure, which increases torque which is converted to horse power with rpm. As for the exhaust valve, even with the smaller seat I was able to crease the flow by being able to use a 3 angle valve job rather than the stock single angle, and the smaller seat also allowed for some reshaping to be done. An optimal exhaust will flow around 70% of what the intake does. In stock form these flow around 78% (because the intake is weak). After I've gotten an increase on the intake side, the exhaust still flows around 78%.
    So, is the stock valve too small? Well, these cars run pretty good in stock form... but aren't we all trying to always go just a little bit faster? LOL
    I just bought a 96 Chevy one-ton dually crew cab pick up and the engine is having issues. I'm afraid the heads may need to come off. If they do, the first thing I'm doing is installing larger valves and porting them.

    I just hit the edit button so I could add this last little thing... increasing valve size does NOT kill bottom-end torque, increasing port volume does... two totally different things. That is widely misunderstood.
     
  15. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

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    Robert Louthan
    #15 louthancomp, Apr 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I've been working on getting titanium retainers for the 308 that will fit the stock spring. I'm also working on putting together an aftermarket spring, ti-retainer, and spring seat package but am not there yet.
    Below are the finished pics of Ben's heads with some close up shots of the titanium retainers and one of the stock steel retainer. The ti is less than half the weight and equally as strong.
    Enjoy the pics!
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  16. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Wow - very nice.
    Out of curiosity, do you have any comment on when/if you go to shim under buckets?
    Again, beautiful work!
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh......Ahhhhhh........golf clap!
     
  18. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

    Jan 9, 2007
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    Great stuff .At what lift do the standard springs bind ?What is the seat pressure? how hard can you rev the std spring with standard cams ?Again thank for sharing this information any possibility of a shot from the inlet port side and how much work is there on the inlet manifold?
     
  19. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #19 louthancomp, May 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It seems like the stock springs coil bind at about .460" lift and I don't remember seat pressure but 90 lbs rings a bell. Sorry, I write this stuff down so I don't have to remember it and I'm not at the shop where all the paperwork is. If you need to know for sure, feel free to call me during the day at the shop 503 390 8875 or email me from my site: www.FerrariPerformance.com
    As far as how high to rev with stock springs and cam.... when the numbers on your tach turn red, I'd quit. :)
    There is a considerable amount of mis-match between the head and intake manifold. I don't know that it really hurts anything but it can't possibly help. I have done some flow testing in that area on other applications and there has to be quite a large mis-match for it to show up. Still, it's nice to have a smooth transition. Here're a few shots:
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  20. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    At my next major, my engine is coming out, my heads are coming off and they are getting shipped to you! Look for them in 2009!

    Birdman
     
  21. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    mk e, snj5,
    I'm working with a 2Vi owner who's converting to carbs, and is considering having Louthian redo his heads as descr in this thread.

    I remember you saying that Vic had a 2V head & was going to do some porting & testing on it. Does he have any numbers yet?

    If so, are they consistent with what louthancomp is reporting?
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Vic hasn't done anything with the 2v head as far as I know.
     
  23. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Don't think stock springs can run that much lift especially with that much seat pressure . .. stock seat pressure I think is like 65# and inner spring binds @.435 . .. outer @.518 . . .just happen to have that stuff sitting here since I'm going thru a cam/spring pressure matching right now :).

    I have an aftermarket Ti retainer and spring set which have a ton of lift and seat pressure "available" . . . just not sure what is too much? Your valve seat material might be more robust but is "beating" the valve seat a valid concern? I think the last motor I did was about 90# seat and 230# open and it ate the shims but was reving to 8300 rpm . . . I think this next motor will see at least 110 on the seat and 250 open.

    Did you post which cams you're using? You have any experience with wear when increasing spring pressure over stock?

    Thanks for sharing,

    Sean
     
  24. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    Hey Sean... did I speak with you on the phone today? 110 and 250 should still be safe. There is way more danger in a valve bouncing on the seat at closing if the springs are too light, than having it "beat" the valve seat from too much presure. The ramps on the cam lobes keep it from closing too hard. (if that's a concern you can set the lash a little on the tight side for a softer closing.) However, if it bounces it will destroy the valve face. This may be apples and oranges, but I have a flat tappet Chevrolet drag race engine running 155 lbs seat and 420 open on a solid flat tappet right now... granted it runs 1/4 mile at a time but it has two full seasons and is showing no wear. I think your'e probably safe as long as you keep it under 140 seat and 300 open and with a valvetrain this light you shouldn't need to even approach those numbers. As long as everything is "happy" a little extra pressure shouldn't cause exessive wear. As far as what cams.... I just run what people send me.... other than that I don't get into that end of it. does that help at all?
     
  25. Mr Montana

    Mr Montana Rookie

    Dec 30, 2006
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    Anthony
    Has anyone sent there heads to Louthan for the head job that he offers?


    I was curious about the results and horsepower numbers.

    Thank you.
     

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