What's up with Mobil 1

Nice guess, but I think it just barfs with "Ferrari". I just ran my 355 and it gave the same answer. I would have thought it would just offer up the 0w-40 or 15w-50...

 

It wasn't all that long ago that I was expounding the virtues of Mobil 1 V-twin 20W50 and for the most part it fell on deaf ears, in fact I took quite abit of heat because of my recommendation. What really got my attention was that it was so highly rated on total score ranking compared to other synthetic oils (highest rated). It really got my attention when this oil was rated so highly on total score. When you think about it a V-Twins front cylinder is cooled by air! the rear cylinder is cooled by accident. So by careful scrutiny I had deducted as had Mobil 1 engineers, they were creating an oil that was very resistant to high temperature. I have tried this oil on a water cooled Porche and found that the engine ran quieter than many other oils experimented with in the past.
Another oil that I commented on was AeroShell 15W50 a semi-synthetic recommended for piston aircraft that shares similar characteristics to Redline full synthetic. This oil has advanced antiwear and anticorrosion formulation is said to eliminate seasonal oil changes. This oil appears to have quite the additive package.
Both of these oils were torn apart in a previous and unrelated thread by uninformed participants but when reading the recent oil engineering thread they are highly recommended and valued for their advanced additive package. Bear in mind that these two oils are not entirely emmissions compliant for catylitic converters.
So just another variant to throw into the mix and to emphasize that not all theories fit all circumstances.

 

Well sir, I vehemently disagree that it is not. Viscosity is a number found by running oil through an orifice, a saybolt tube, at a predescribed temperture, and measuring the volume of oil that passes through it in a predescribed amount of time. Hence, and therefore, a particular viscosity of fluid would pass the same exact volume of fluid through the orifice in the same amount of time, time and time again. If the SAE determined that an SAE 30 wieght oil would pass a particular volume through a saybolt tube at 212 degrees, its pretty darned easy to compare heavier or lighter viscosities of oils against that standard. Therefore, all 30 wieght rated oils would flow the same volume of oil through the same sized orifice at the same standard temperture as all other 30 wieght rated oils. Period. Thats what the wieght rating means. That is the same method used to determine a 50 W oil, or any other grade. That way any grade of oil will easily be compared to any other grade. So therefore, a 20W50 is a 20W50 is a 20W50. Period! They should all behave simularly as regards viscosity regardless of brand. At least initially.

 

Amen. 0W-30 is great for street with ambient temps below 60F. Over that and find the pressure gets really low throughout the rev range. That's is when i would switch to 0W-40, though on track days about 90F plan to change out to 15W-50 M1 and see how that goes. Of course the blower could change the above and will see where operating temps level off and adjust accordingly.

Still, it was intersting looking up the bottom end of things when we removed the oil pan to install the oil baffle mod and she was VERY clean.

 

The "at least initially" is exactly the point. Along with temperature, surface tension, etc. etc. Did it occur that squeezing it through the orifice at heat could perhaps cause molecular changes that would alter the flow properties?

It is vehemently more complex than squeezing grease through a hole.

But here I bein to diverge...

 

You don't get it obviously. Oils are a chemical soup. Every forumulator has their own recipe of basestocks, additives, etc. Brand X and Brand Y that are the same weight (ex. 20W50) will differ in Pour Point, Flash Point, NOACK, HTHS. You are free to believe that a Grp 1 basestock loaded with pour point depressants and viscosity index improvers perform the same way as a Grp IV or V basestock that has little or no need for these. The rest of us, though, know the difference.

 

(Said in good humor)

Just KNOW there is a joke in there somewhere

 

There was. I will leave the rest up to the imagination...

 

I dont understand this. I can read as well as anyone, and I truely can understand how to calculate viscosity. Its done with paints and other fluids all the time. At a given temperture, a particular fluid will pass through a given orifice size in a particular volume over a particular period of time. A air flow bench works on the same exact priciples.

The time required for a set volume of fluid to pass through that orifice is what states its viscosity. If it passed through slower, its a thicker fluid, more viscous, and would carry a higher viscosity index. Same regards a fluid that would pass through faster, its less viscous and would get a lower viscosity index. When car, motorcycle, airplane, lawnmower, or particular engine manufactures list oil viscosities, they never augment it with stating varying degrees between varying manufactures of oil. Of course not. Simply because SAE standards for viscosity do not vary that way. They are empiracle. Any 30 wieght oil should flow the same as any other 30 wieght oil at those same tested tempertures. If it doesnt its not a 30 wieght oil. What it does or what it becomes after it rolls around inside your engine for a while is another thing. I dont care if its engine oil, Mazola, or your moms chicken gravy, if it flows like any other 30 wieght viscosity fluid, thats what it is. Thats why any 20W50 motor oil should flow like any other 20W50 at 100*C. And thats also why I said "inititially", because once it enters the engine and starts running and getting washed with fuel and water vapors and combustion by-products, everything changes.

As I stated before, I dont not like synthetics, I just feel they are hyped up way to much, to the point of taking on almost some kind of magical properties. Engines will last just as long with any good oil put in them and changed regularly. And its that regularly part that needs to be emphasized a bit more stronly.

 

I really don't think that most of us do not know the difference which is why we continue to explore all the intracasies of this mysterious liquid that continues to change monthly if not daily.
If you really want to educate rather than expound your knowledge of the subject matter, please do so in a manner that is not inflammatory and meant to advance the subject matter without taking it so personal. No one is interested in attacking your knowledge. Give us something we can sink our teeth in and learn from. Perhaps a little something pedestrian rather than textbook so we can follow your thoughts would be in order.

 

I have had on my desk a recent SAE paper that among other things indicated that viscosity itself is on the bottom of the list of things that protects your engine. I just do not know when I can get to reading it uninterrupted. 'Too much going on right now for study work.

That said you will see how important running the proper, and preferably thinner than you think, oil in your engine. Read my articles in the FAQ section under the "search" heading.

Read one of my "I am tired of" series on oil content here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=871085&an=0&page=1#Post871085

aehaas

 

Yeah, I do take stuff too personally sometimes. I have a problem with people who lie, mislead and peddle BS. Here we go, again.

What characteristics might those be Gary48? The Aeroshell is a blend of mineral oil (dino) and PAOs. Redline is mostly Polyol Esters. How about additives? Redline uses over 1000PPM for Phosphorus and Zinc and over 2500PPM for Calcium. Aviation oils use very little or no detergents because they are referred to as ashless. "Decades ago in aviation history, oils that cleaned involved metallic cleaning particles that left embers. Such glowing metallic embers contributed to pre-ignition. Detergent oils have long since been removed from aviation piston engines" Hmmm, looks like Redline is full of metallic detergents, huh? Similar "characteristics"? WTF are you talking about?

I see you are rewriting history again. The oils weren't torn apart, as they are very good oils for their intended uses. In fact it was your stupid posts that were torn apart and for good reason. Remember this? Back in 12/12/2005 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135415627&postcount=40

So Gary, why is it that you continue to peddle nonsense that is so easily debunked by the power of Google? You have about as much credibility as Matt and his factory 308 restoration.

 

Gee! how did I know that was going to happen? so predictable, I guess your out to prove something, problem is nobody knows what.

 

As a Note about Mobil 1 oil,for what its worth,
Was at the chrysler tech center in january, Witnessed the dyno testing of the 6.1 hemi durabilty testing (425 HP 6400 rpm) They run the thing for 420 straight hours, 211 hours going between torque peak & HP peak. When the engineers were questioned ( because many owners had reservations about the 0 weight mobil 1) the engineers insisted that this was the oil to use. Also saw a viper v10 run on a 110 hour cycle with a map of road atlanta, again on factory fill mobil one. I have to say that is a pretty good testimonial.
Granted not a ferrari but high hp, high temp engines.

But for some good read, go to www.viperclub.org the gen 1 fourum & do a search on oils, there is a lenghthy post by an oil engineer that has tons of info.

 

Sir, I think you should learn to read peoples posts a little better. Or maybe just learn how to read.

torn apart. He didnt mean torn apart "literally", he meant torn apart subjectively, in conversation, as to its performance or capabilities. Or didnt you "understand" what he was saying?

There is a good read on wikepedia as regards viscosity, for anyones who is that interested. There is more information and BS out there to make your eyes turn blue.

If ya'll wanna run 0W oil, go for it. Read all the hype, make your own decision. If you want to believe your engine will run any longer, go ahead. Personally, I doubt it. Ive seen good engines that ran a long time on good oil, and cheap engines that ran a long time on cheap oil. As long as its changed they all seem to have long happy lives. Ive seen engines that ran over 40 years and accumulated many thousands of hours on dumb old dino oil, and I have seen engines that were ruined in short order on Mobil One by morons who only changed it every 25K miles. Ive also seen good companies mis mark thier packaging or put the wrong stuff in the bottles and wreck a lot of engines. So its all relative. I dont generally just blindly pour stuff into my motors anymore without at least making sure its what it says it is. Personally I think its all hyped up snake oil with more claims of magic BS than you can throw a stick at. Id rather spend my money and effort somewhere else.

 

Says the guy who can't keep up with what's being discussed in this thread.

He advocated the use of AeroShell aviation oil in automobile engines and got called out on it, again. Gary48 has also advocated on this forum the use of acetone in gasoline which has been debunked repeatedly.

So this is what it ultimately comes down too..., your "feelings". No empiricism or use of the scientific method. A couple of users posted UOAs of the synthetics they used with outstanding performance numbers. And you bring "tEh zEr0 tEcH".

 

Well, I'll put my 35+ years of wrenching and seeing the insides of engines of almost every type or make known against some pencil pusher college boy sitting behind a desk any day of the week. Lots of things look good on paper or off some computer program that just dont pan out in the real world. I noticed you were born in 1966. I personally know of well over two dozen small aircraft with engines older than you that are still running, have never been apart, and all have between 2500 to plus 4000 hours on them. Several are actually from the mid '50's. Not one has ever had one freaken drop of synthetic oil in them. You, nor anyone else is ever going to convince me that synthetic is going to make an engine last one second more than a motor will last on conventional oil.

Not good enough? Go back and read the magazine issues from the MB club of America over the last 20 odd years. Cars reported with mileages in excess of 500K miles are NOT uncommon. Many in excess of 700K miles. None had synthetics in them. WTF? Large stationary engines, large diesels, small utility engines, inboard boats, ive seen them all. No wait. I seen a 1918 Model T Ford last summer that has never been apart, and wasnt ran or driven since 1953 until last summer. Boy, wonder how much synthetic its had in it? For Gods sakes, I had a Kohler engine that was built in the early 1960's that was still hammering away 5 years ago, never anything more than straight 30W dino oil its whole life. If you think anything works much harder than a lawn tractor or runs oil up any hotter on a regular basis I would like to know about it. Maybe a portable cement mixer, but I have seen some old Wisconsin engines that looked like they had gone to hell and back, and they still ran too. And if you seen the kind of oil guys at job sites will dump in an engine, or how low they let them get, you would shake your head.

And last but not least, the big Hemi at Chrysler running 0W oil and the engineers bragging it up. Well, I am also very well aware of "CAFE" and what it ultimately means for large car makers. If that 0W oil can eek out even 1/2 an MPG more per vehicle accross the fleet, they have to take it so long as it will run out past warrantee. They have to, they need all the help pulling thier numbers up they can find. And they have to certify to EPA that they will do it. And if that means making 0W oil mandadory and walking the "company line", thats what they will do. And at that point its of very little engineering merit.

For all practicle purpose you could pour used black drain oil in your Ferrari and it would probably run just as long. At the end of the day, all the scientific formulas, viscosity indexes, and all the rest dont mean that much. Its oil. Extract it out of plants or mine from the ground, its all oil. As long as it dont turn to acid or sludge your all going to be okay. In fact, someone show me one single oil related issue with a Ferrari. One thread. There arent any. Timing belts strip, tensioners lock up, water pumps fail, tranny linkage goes retarded, Dinoplex boxes go INOP, 308's catch fire, or some of you get a major oil leak (or blow a UFI oil filter), but there just arent any oil related issues with these cars, or any other cars. So you can buy $1.49qt oil, or you can buy $7.49qt oil. But your engine wont know the damned difference if its all the same viscosity and you change it with any kind of intelligence. And a day in a salvage yard will teach you just about as much. There really arent any cars, or precious few that end up there because of an oil related problem.

 

I think synthetic would be better in a situation where something like a heater hose broke or a thermostat stuck closed and engine severely overheats, synthetic would handle the added heat where conventional oil might fail , thus saving the engine. That's why I use it, cheap Insurance.

 

I will repeat what I have said in my automotive oil articles:

The main advantage of synthetic oils is better start up characteristics and the ability to withstand higher temperatures. Higher temperatures probably only occur in race track situations.

The ability to use the oil for a longer period of time is more a function of additives though synthetic oils with no viscosity improvers do not thin initially with time. But synthetic oils have the same problem of thickening over time. This along with additive depletion is the reason oil needs to be changed.

aehaas

 

I suspect that the majority of the adult posters on f-chat are degree holders, some in the demanding fields of Medicine, Law or Enginering. Your right, I am a college boy with a BA and MS from the GI Bill. Fact is, not everyone posesses the intellectual rigor that a university education requires.

You appear to be the lone voice of dissent on this subject and have made up your mind regardless of the facts. Your anecdotal evidence of low RPM industrial/auto engines has little in common with high RPM sportscar engines too. Since you are a fan of wikipedia here's one for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

 

Dr. Haas,

This is the best definition that I have read about the functions, pro and con, of Synthetic vs. Conventional Oils and Lubricants. Simple, Concise and Accurate. They need to be changed and replenished, for both to be effective, as designed for their particular uses.

Now, I can sleep confidently at Night!

Ciao...Paolo

 

I'm not faulting your education. I am faulting your repeated attempts at insulting everyone that crosses your path by riducule and conciet. Your not a very nice person if the repeated personal attacks you have made on more than a few people here are any example. And I can assure you, sir, my experience is far from limited to low RPM industrial engines, but your so busy attacking everyone you probably wouldnt know that. And if you knew that, I am sure you would find some other means of attack. I might have put myself through college if I could have afforded it, but at the time that was not an option. Glad to see that years later my hard earned tax dollars could help pay to give you your elitist attitude.


Shortly after Beechcraft began selling the V-tail Bonanza, it earned the nickname forked tail Doctor killer. Bonanzas were splattering themselves in cornfields and mountainsides all over the country, and it took a bit of research to understand why. It turned out there was nothing at wrond with the airplane, but was pilot error. The reason was that it was a fast single engine retractable airplane, and young Doctors were the largest buying group because of its median price range. And of all the people in the world, Doctors are the hardest to teach to fly, and among the hardest to explain things to once they move past a certain phase of learning. How in the world can a Doctor, with eight or more years of extensive medical training stand to be taught or corrected by a flight instructor with no formal education? Why would a Doctor listen to a mechanic with 40 plus years hands on experience, surely herr Doctor is oh so much more enlightened than some "grease monkey" that never went to college. Kennedy Jr. probably falls into that group. Lots of money, know it all, or thought he did. Classic accident. Classic story. Classic results. No, Kennedy wasnt a Doctor, he was a lawyer. Same difference. Sometimes people get just enough education and start thinking they are oh so much smarter than all of the "little people", that they begin to look down on everyone with contempt. So take your "anecdotal" link and stick it where the sun dont shine.

 

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