1st post -P car owner thinking about 328

Hi folks,

I've been searching and reading this forum quite a bit. I have learned a lot but am still very green on many subjects. I thought an introduction and question might help in my quest for a quick education.

I have been around cars for decades, owned, serviced and rebuilt more than my share of rides as a hobby- not professionally. I am an engineer by trade but have always loved cars- all cars. I have often thought of getting a Ferrari but I've had so many toys at times it has been tough to justify the price for what would likely be more of a garage queen than a true driver. However, there is a local 328 project that has me thinking.

Having comepletely redone my Porsche, I'm well aware that these projects are a false economy. But, I enjoy the work and the challenge as much as the ownership/driving experience. I just found out about the car and know very little about it other than it's apart and the engine/gearbox are in unknown condition.

My questions relate to how this type of project might fit my personality type? Are parts and technical support readily available here or do most leave majors to experts? I understand the 328 is one of the better models for guys that are "hands on". I've also been watching values and don't wish to be penny wise and pound foolish. Any thoughts?

 

I've had a couple of 928s and a couple of GT4s. The Ferraris were much easier to work on in terms of access. There's nothing frightening about Ferrari mechanicals, only the parts prices. But if you're coming from Porsche then you are already used to that! Parts availability is excellent and the Technical section on this site has many Ferrari mechanics as regular posters.

 

Welcome

First, yes, it's false economy to buy a project Ferrari. There are enough 328s out there that you'd undoubtedly be better off getting one in running shape.


Ok -- so we're past the logical answer. On to the fun one

Parts availability for these are pretty good, but watch for missing light lenses and such, as they are pretty much unavailable. Some parts are crazy expensive, some are surprisingly reasonable if they cross-reference to other Italian makes. Ferrari UK and TRutlands offer parts new and used.

The bodies are full of filler from the factory. Avoid a bare metal respray if you can.

Mechanically it's pretty basic. How-tos on just about everything have been posted to this section or the tech section. The injection system is a basic Bosch CIS system

If you really want to dump money in it, check the new superchargers offered by multiple vendors

 

Do it, buddy. If you're good at that sort of thing, you can do it. They're relatively uncomplicated bits of machinery. I am sure that you can add your own little improvements along the way.

 

Hi there jav,

Welcome to FerrariChat. As you have seen, there is a wealth of information here and this will be "the" resource as you whip a project car into shape.

Sometimes, people come on here and post ("328 or Porsche Boxter?") Generally the poster is a great individual who, in many cases, is just not ready for Ferrari ownership.

Nothing in your post signified that to me. There are a lot of engineer owners here; it's a good fit. And one with real-deal previous automotive mechanical experience is going to generally sync well with a model like a Ferrari 328 (generally well designed mechanically).

You especially seem to realize that project cars are not really vehicles to earn you a profit. However, it is not unreasonable if you buy right, and your labor is free, that you could sell a restored project car and not come out too bad on the deal. The "false economy" could be when you pay $30k for a project car and pay $20K to "restore" it. Still not the worst thing in the world. If your financial position is such that being up or down a few thousand dollars isn't going to kill you, or cause you to regret the decision, or negate the fun you'll have, then that's another very positive indicator.

"Project" is a broad term. Most 328s are in generally good shape. I have yet to see a "basketcase" 328 (but they probably exist), where I've seen my share of basketcase 308s. If your project car has accident damage, that means something different than a project car whose timing belts let go (and needs a top-end rebuild), which is different from a project car that has just generally not been kept up, is rough cosmetically, and needs a full service. Accordingly, 328s generally don't require "restoration" at this point. Some folks have redone their interior (i.e., redying leather seats, removing and cleaning center console) but I haven't really witnessed a full mechanical restoration like I see here locally with some 330s (i.e. V-12 year down, complete restoration of mechanicals). There are many 90k, 100k+ miles examples around as "existence proofs" that these cars will last a long time.

FYI, there happens to be a complete 328 gearbox assembly for sale in the Ferrari Club of America national newsletter.

Speaking with master Ferrari technicians, it is clear that there is a lot of "learned experience" that comes over time from working on these cars; this is knowledge learned through experience, not magic. E.g., tricks to get the front bank distributor seal just right so it doesn't leak; how much sealant to apply to gaskets so it doesn't gunk up on the inside and leave little "gasket nuggets" in your oil system; etc.

The 328 is a pretty straightforward car. I just had it aligned and the comments were that it was much easier to do (traditional steering technology) vs., say, a modern Audi (was their example). Tires are readily available for the car. It has reasonably modern and simple A/C systems, CIS Fuel Injection (you may have experience with this from working on 1980s Porshces - identical system), braking systems and calipers, etc. There are some specialized modules (Marelli ignition), these are not known to be problem areas. In your case, understanding the state of the engine will be a big factor in the overall experience: does it turn over? Do you need a new engine? Also, gearbox work (not too common on 328s) is intensive and requires engine removal; tranny bits like syncro rings are not cheap ($200-$300 or more). Note pretty much everything else engine-wise on the car is done with the engine in.

Parts will cost more on these cars than what you're used to, but they are generally available.

The 328 driving experience will contrast greatly with that of your Porsche and if you're a car guy, you shouldn't go through life without having this experience. As long as you don't require viper or Z06 or (insert any modern sports car - Porsche, new Ferrari, etc.) acceleration, and can appreciate the overall driving experience and balance that comes with the 328, you'll probably be happy. If your reference point is a 1980s or early 90s non-turbo Porsche, the 328 will feel fast.

Hope this has given you some additional perspective. When you get a chance, fill out your profile a bit. Also, you may want to post some details about the 328 in question (do not feel obligated to post the actual car or where you've found it if you want to keep the "find" yours).


Take care,

Mike
1987 328 GTS

 

Like me????

At least I'm still reading and trying to study up for when I do get one. Bullfighter and others keep pushing me....

Back to the OP, another advantage about the 328 is that its generally the one that has less "sudden" maintenance than the others and thus can be a better daily driver (as per the feedback I got when I was looking). So, once you go get finished rebuilding it from its "project" state, you will be able to get more enjoyment out of driving it.

James in Denver

 

Man up and sell the damn Boxster already. (I realized I hadn't pushed you in 24 hours or so. Sorry about the lapse.)

 

Great posts here already, so you know this is a money-sucking project and not an 'investment'... nothing I can add to that.

The only thing I would add, being a liberal arts kind of guy and predisposed to long posts, is that you might not want to wait months and months to have a drive in it.

There are plenty of good 'driver' 328s around, and it really is a pleasure to drive, especially in the warm weather with the top off. If the restoration/rebuild is what flips your switch, then go for it. But make sure your driving time isn't so far off. I had a Porsche 993 before my 328, and it's kind of like the difference between sex education and the practical exam.

Even James will be buying one soon. I sense a disturbance in the Force.

 

"Like me???" my ass. I was referring to the other guy with the same question from a while back. He wasn't ready.

You? Sheee-it. Everybody knows you're ready. You apparently just don't know it yet .

 

You're in Boulder. Sorry, but the entire 328 community is holding you partly responsible for his pathetic display of foot-dragging and hemming-and-hawing.

 

Gentlemen,

thanks for your prompt and candid responses. Hopefully, this will not be a double post as the one I just typed appears lost... so here goes again.

Lots of great info provided as well as some suprises such as the use of filler and CIS. My 1981 928 already had L Jet and this 328 is 7 years it's junior, not that this is a bad thing as I'm rather fond of Bosche K jet.

Mike - thank you for your great description of Ferrari ownership and driving insight. It made perfect and clear sense without embelishment of the experience. I've wanted this for a long time and I'm well aware that this vintage of cars is easily outpaced by the STi's and Evo's of the world. To me, it's about the driving experience and more. The car has to evoke something in me and while many cars do, not many do it for me like the 308, 328 and 355.

Now the bad news.. I learned of this car from a freind that knows I've always wanted a 308/328 but it appears I found out too late. The car has made it to ebay and it appears to be generating some attention (1988 gts w/ engine out in MA). I fear this project will start to become less attractive as the price escalates.

I've had my 928 for over 20 years (no stranger to expensive parts and rigorous maintenance) and just about every part has seen the light of day at some point- not by necessity but more becuase I like things to be right. While great for an intimate knowledge of the car, it's terrible for the wallet. If I could buy the 328 right, I would garage it and go through it slowly and correctly. I know I wouldn't be happy unless the car gets the attention and investment that it deserves. Given no history, records or the ability to drive the car to asses all sub-sytems, this particular opportunity may not make sense in light of the unknowns when compared to pristine examples.

In any event, thank you for the warm welcome and good advice. I'll likely go look at the car anyway and speak to the seller since I'm so close. I'm pretty adept at evaluating owners and cars. Please feel free to share any comments or suggestions... I'm here to learn and thanks again.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180105470073

ZFFXA20A5J0076980 for reference/search purposes

Cash in hand wakes a seller up -- remind him that a local sale means no Ebay commission.

Do you know why the motor was being rebuilt? EDIT: It was being rebuilt for low compression after hibernation?? Strange decision.

That's a lot of boxes of parts. I sure hope it's all there. If all else fails, see pic (not my car)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I too am new here and also considering the 328 in question. A close peek at the left front of the car reveals a very crusty brake disc behind the wheel. I don't know of any sports car that survives a long hibernation without some colateral damage, but Man does does this seem like a nearly ideal situation for a rebuilder like Myself.

 

Yes, I too noticed a few things from the postings such as, why would anyone leave the top off in that environment? Pics tend to hide many sins and certainly there's bound to be things missing from that high tech filing system. I don't see exhaust or top components.

Low compression after a long hybernation on a 22k mile car? One would think that any owner of this type vehicle would have the good sense to warm the car up if not drive it on occasion. I suppose it's possible to have some surface build up on a few valves if they sat in the open postion but I was under the impression the cylinders were fairly resistent to this? It would be nice to know what the compression was on all 8 and if a wet test was performed. Sitting for long periods is not good for many other parts of the car. I would guess that all the rubber needs attention and I would bet some of the weather stripping and trim is going to be difficult and expensive to replace.

Interesting and educational.

 

Between www.Cars.com, www.autotrader.com, the latest Ferrari Market Letter, and various national dealers, there are probably around 20 328 GTS for sale at various prices.

There are likely that many 308 for sale.

You may have to shop out of state but if done correctly that shouldn't be a problem.

-F

 

Anyone have an update on the black 328 "in parts" car?

Just checked ebay, it was pulled because "it was no longer for sale".

Anyone here get it?

James in Denver

 

Actually it's probably the norm.

 

I spoke to the owner and was going to look at it Wednesday. I called as I was driving down and the owner told me he had just accepted a blind offer and deposite on the roller alone (sans engine/transaxle). I won't post the details of his transaction but if it goes through, he's done quite well.

I spoke to him a few times and my mental "not to exceed" figure was going down even before seeing the car. The car had no records and what speculative history there was, wasn't favorable. The car sat for admittedly 3 years (likely even longer), was repossessed and sold at auction during that stint. When he bought it, it ran but horribly and was not driveable. The sole diagnosis was low compresion but no data as to how low or, how even the numbers were accross the cylinders. Obvioulsy, no input on how the transmission and suspension felt. The interior and exterior were described as good but it was tempered that the car IS 19 years old.

In my limited F-car education, I would say this car when complete, would at best be a nice driver, and with an engine rebuild conducted by anyone other than a reputable Ferrari shop, would "sell" in the 35-40k range. It might be worth more on paper but given the condition and history, thats where I think it would end up- (please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still learning). I could see easily spending 20K in the engine rebuild, re-installation, ac, brake, suspension, tires, seals and some minor interior and exterior sprucing. Thats with free labor and a conservative estimate based on my experience. The numbers were of concern and while I enjoy a project, I'd like not to be upside down from day one as surprises are all too common and expected.

I'd love some comments on my thought process as I've been really getting used to the idea of having a Ferrari in the garage.

 

and it continues.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1988-Ferrari-328-GTS_W0QQitemZ180105470073QQihZ008QQcategoryZ6212QQcmdZViewItem

odd way to sell a car, why split it up?

there is and add on the other F-bb about the drivetrain bits

 

My GT4 sat for about 15 years before I bought it and there was no excitement in the engine when it was brought back to life. I drove the car three hours to get it home even.

My old Ducati sat under a tarp outside for ten years before I bought it. Leaked and smoked from all the dried seals, but it ran with an oil change and new fuel.

Do I sound sceptical that a three year nap would require a complete engine disassembely? I am.

 

jav,

Don't be discouraged! Keep looking for the RIGHT car. I looked for a long long time before I found my 328. Many times I thought I had found the right car only to discover it wasn't what I really thought it was. One time I even flew down to Floridia to look at a "perfect car" only to find parts falling off as we drove it.

A few things I have learned along the way;
Sometimes much of the fun is in the chase - don't rush - find the RIGHT car.
Even with mechanical experience you may be better off in the long run paying a little more up front than getting into a "fixer uper" - Parts are avaliable, but in comparison to restoring my 67' Porsche, Ferrari parts are way more $$, and not nearly as easy to find (no "Performance Products" catalog for Ferrari).

Good luck with your search!

 

Jav...I'd concur with others and also recommend to keep searching for the best 328 you can find that you can afford.

These "projects" in the Ferrari world can get deep mighty quick in the money pit if one plans to restore one of these cars "properly". Ferraris are expensive enough just to maintain properly, let alone rebuilding one. Most of them, when they've reached the point of project car, have been sold to places like Ferrari Parts Exchange or T. Rutlands as "parts cars" as they are simply more valuable generally speaking as such.

Ironically, your situation sounds very similar to a colleague of mine who is a long-time Porsche enthusiast and is looking to get into a Ferrari. I also recommended that he take a good look at the 308 / 328 series based on his budget.

Noticed that your profile isn't filled out so we don't really know your location, etc.; however, as mentioned before by a previous poster, there are several 328's out there on the market. Some with lower miles may cost a bit more like those at Motor Cars International. There are even some super nice 328's for sale here on this sight (see FerrariAds.com in the banner above) that are owned by fellow chatters here.

Best wishes to you and your search...hope you find "the right one" soon. Keep us posted...