Eagles Canyon Raceway

I personally organized 2 of the tours and am a good friend of Linda and David Cook. They have been very kind to let people enjoy the track. They are now getting to the point where they need to get very serious to get the track ready to host events. This means roadwork, buildings (2), parking lots, garages, run-off, curbing and the topcoat on the track. This also means that they need to restrict people from coming out at just anytime to get these pieces of work down. At the end of April the access to the track will be restricted. This doesn't mean they are going to stop giving tours. In fact, they would like to have an annual tour day where people will be able to come out.

They are going to restrict the Junior Membership due to the number of people joining up at this level. There are a few things to note on the latest restrictions. First, limiting the membership to 30 days a year should not be an issue for anyone joining at this level. If you figure on driving an average of 3 days a month with 2 days during the week and 1 on the week end, you are already paying $250/mo + tax for driving time every month or the same as the monthly dues on a Provate Membership. With this much driving, there are several advantages for paying the extra and just moving up to a Private Membership. A Private Membership is actually a family membership which includes all immediate family members (parents, children, brothers and sisters). You also get 12 free guest passes a year (worth about $1800).

For those like myself who may only be able to spend 1-2 days a month at the track for ourselves, the Junior Membership is a great option. Once you get the membership, you don't pay if you don't go. MSR doesn't offer this as an option. I know MSR members who haven't gone out there in 6 months, yet pay their monthly dues every month.

Have no fear about the track time be used up by clubs and DEs. Linda and David will be starting construction on a 2nd track as soon as all the club days for the first year fill. They have already heard plenty of comments from members of other tracks who really want to run year round. Having 2 full length tracks means members can still run on club days and it allows members to continue to run when track maintenance is performed

Final notes:

It is true the Junior Membership ends in July, but also the initial discount ends at the end of this month. There is a 20% discount on all membership levels for those who join "before the track opens". This discount has been extended several times, but they will be ending it at the end of the April. This means the Junior Membership is only $2,000+tax and the Private Membership is $4,000+tax. Last, even though it is not on the member form; they do take Discover.

 

Are MSR Cresson members allowed to run on the weekends when clubs are out there? No. So, it does apply to MSR Cresson and many of the msr cresson members made comments about it.

 

Hi there

Would you be kind enough to tell us your name?

Thanks

 

Correction:

I would like to make one correction to my previous post about the Private membership, it only includes the immediate family; not the extended family. These means: spouses and children; not parents, brothers and sisters (this is the Italian car community and some of those families are big).

Additional notes:

1. Garages are also going up soon and they are already taking deposits on the first ones. They are going to be fairly large in size, I got 12' x 25' from Linda and David.

2. The Junior membership is upgradable, but not transferable. You can start out as a Junior member and upgrade to a Private membership later, only paying the difference. The Private membership is transferable.

3. No monthly fees for members until the track is fully complete. For paid memberships, they will not be charging monthly fees until the track is fully complete with the full runoff, curbing and the top coat (expected in July). You will still get limited access to use the track during this period. Yet another incentive to join early.

I will be sending in my membership form around the 20th to join as a Junior member. (Just got done with taxes this month, better to be on next months CC bill). Myself and Kevin (another tour organizer also joining the track) are talking about splitting a garage. Neither of us will be storing a car or a trailing at the track, but we would like room to store our race wheels/tires, jack, tools and some parts. So let me know if anyone else would like to split a garage. For those who went out on the tours, I was in a Gray 996 on MPSCs (not to be mistake with the Gray 997 that went off the course).

Hope to see you out there,

Loren

 

Depends on the club renting the track. For a big club like PCA or Driver's Edge, you are correct in that member's can not be out.

However there have been many instances of the 1.7 or 1.3 track being rented and members being on the other side. Perhaps you spoke to some less active members who were not aware of this.

There are lots of issues invovled in running two tracks idependently, i.e. facility parking, corner workers, fire safety crews, etc. When a large club rents a portion it sucks dry the supporting infrastructure that is needed to run two tracks safely. You may have noticed that the PCA is only running the 1.7M track at their DE this weekend. Why? I was told that there are competing track events in the area and they could not get corner works to man the whole track. I hope EC is considering such obstacles.

I wish the best for EC, its a good thing for all of us. But I'd also like to see EC get one track running first before they have illusions of grandeur.

 

Take in example the PCA event this last weekend at MSR. On a normal event weekend running the full 3.1 mile course, no members are allowed to run; unless they are entered in the event. There are many MSR members that also run DEs for the instruction and opportunity to run with other drivers, but they always register and pay for the events. Due to a shortage of corner workers, they only ran the short course (1.7) over this last weekend. Sorry, but no members were not allowed to run the 1.3 course when it was not being used. Are members going to be allowed to run the 1.3 during the Concorso next week? No (but they may open it up to some of the advance Concorso drivers). During now many Apex Schools running the 1.7 were members allowed to run the 1.3? None.

The only deviation from this is shared club days. These are days where the clubs can get 4 sessions (2 lead and follow and 2 full run) with instruction (from Jack Farr himself) on a day that is shared with members. Members are not allowed to run these 4 sessions unless they enter the shared club event. This is not a full track rental, but a program where clubs are given an introductory to track driving on a member day, limiting the amount of member driving for that day. I am not sure how many know about this program at MSR, but it is a reasonable way to get some track time in for 16-32 people without a membership on ANY member day (including weekends). I have set up 2 of these shared club days and it is a great program.

I don't think there is anything negative here toward MSR. They were the first true membership track in Texas. They are also a business that has to focus on meeting bottom line. Not every member likes the idea that they have to be a second class to any club that comes along, but club days make a lot more money than member and hence they get the priority.

There is obviously some new track competition that benefits all of us. MSR has never really changed their model, but they did increase membership and monthly dues a couple of years ago. Racers Ranch's idea is a very expensive exclusive membership centered around a low-population multi-activity community that highly caters to members with little provisions for clubs. ECR's focus is a reasonable broad membership with a higher membership number at a more reasonable price, but attracting major events and still keeping a concentration on membership.

So what's really the biggest difference between MSR and ECR besides the location? The track. Racer's Ranch is out of the equasion since it is still a dirt road with a observation stand in the middle. We'll have to see it when they have it completed to show us. The ECR track was designed to be a lot more than just a club track. It was built to FIA specifications to attract higher level domestic and international events. It is 40' wide in the straights and 50' wide in the corners. It completely lacks any of the tightness you feel at MSR and feels more like a Hallett or TWS track. There are much more significant elevation changes than the new section of MSR, but they are blended into far smoother transitions. MSR and ECR are very different tracks and each have their own unique challenges when you drive them. ECR built the big course to start with rather in a 2-phase approach as MSR did. I like the idea of a track that is more focused to its members. ECR will win my membership, but I will still continue to do 4-6 club events a year at MSR.

 

Car Guy, you are just plain wrong about multi-track usage at MSR, apparently since you are not a MSR member and therefore not out there often enough to know what goes on. Members have run the 1.3 when Apex runs the 1.7 and last I checked members could run the 1.3 this weekend. In fact, we are operating the Lamborghini Concorso so as to minimize disruption in member use of the 1.3.

Also, as for track comparisons, ECR definitely looks a lot faster and I have heard lots of good things, but I'd say Hallett and MSR are VERY similar in length, number of turns and lap times. TWS has more speed potential and is the one that I'd think is likely to draw comparisons to ECR.

I really look forward to ECR being a reality, but we shall see if economics allow it to be as member-focused as you expect. Any big pro race revenue is probably 2 years out, as this year's schedule is set and next year is probably set for all intents and purposes for F1, leaving only CART, ALMS, and Grand Am for pro racing - plus the infrastructure is not in and people need places to stay, etc, so I think ECR has to be thinking 2009 for a first pro race. So pro race revenues seem unlikely for the next year or two.

In the interim, I bet ECR sees lots of PCA, BMW club, SCCA, NASA, Drivers Edge and other interest - ECR booked events with at least NASA and DE for spring this year, dates that would have been lost to brand new members. I have also heard that they have a lot of days under contract to a big name school, I am guessing Skip Barber. It is inevitable that these days eat into member availability.

Your tone came across to me as anti-MSR and certainly pro ECR. Especially any insinuation that MSR is not pro-member. Those of us who appreciate economic realities understand that MSR is expensive to just sit there, with property taxes and insurance and staff and maintenance and power and so on. Yes, I'd like more member time on occasion, but I'd like it a lot less for the place to lie fallow or become a strip mall.

You obviously cannot understand or appreciate the level of financial commitment and sacrifice Jack Farr has gone through to create and maintain MSR for its members. I guarantee the Cooks are going through the same enormous sacrifice and I would not begrudge them in the least the revenues from track rental to the exclusion of members.

I hope my tone comes out only pro MSR and guilty as charged. I have been a member for about as long as it was open, count Jack Farr as a friend, and have the good fortune to have a second home there, so I am pretty well rooted at MSR. That said, I really want ECR to be successful and expect to join there as well.

Finally, I can't help but take the shot that I bet the Cooks are ecstatic that they "won" your Junior membership, for which you will pay at most $2000 and no monthly dues and $100/day for the time you go out to use the track.
They can now retire.

And your whole name, as Tillman asked, Loren?

Keith Verges
Apex Driving Academy

 

As Keith said, you are just plain wrong about how MSR operates. Do a little homework first before posting, MSR's website clearly states members are on the 1.3m on Saturday while Apex runs the Lambo event on the 1.7m:

http://www.motorsportranch.com/calendar/index.cfm?CalendarID=1

This is commonly how MSR operates. There are also lots of Thursdays, Fridays, and Mondays when MSR is open for members. While everyone would like more track time, I have never heard anyone complain about the track being rented too often to get their track time in. That is simply not a factor.

MSR was designed with safety and techinical layout in mind. It sacrificed long straights and speed for a greater variety of corners, camber changes, etc. During an instruction session a couple weeks ago, Patrick Long described it as one of the best tracks in the country to train on. That was Jack's vision, a place that member's could grow as drivers and he set a price point that would not be exclusionary. Mission accomplished.

I look forward to racing at ECR when it opens as it will be a great addition to the community. But as far as attracting the major pro events that you describe I hope you are very patient. As Keith accurately described, laying down asphalt is just the start of what you need. Again, I'd ask you do some homework on the topic before setting expectations so high.


Any chance you are the Loren driving a 996 in the PCA event this weekend?

 

Another thing that has not been mentioned to any extent - besides the track and garages etc - there are a lot of other things needed to make a new facility user friendly to non-club participants such as members. Things like timing devices, paddock and hot pit management, flag people, workshops, gas and other fluid sources etc etc. As far as I can tell none of that stuff is even close to being available at Eagle. They will be there one day but only if some members, the owners or the clubs are willing to make the up front investments to carry the losses until the business builds. While MSR is still rudimentary in many of these areas, they get better and better and because it is NOT a club and will be whatever Jack wants it to be, his vision still prevails to MSRs advantage. This is not intended to be a "mine is better than yours" statement but rather to point out that Eagle has a long long way to go before it is going to be capable of much more than DE and safety schools without a lot more investment. Investment that may be planned but I have seen no evidence of its imminence.

 

I have a lot of respect for Jack, what he built and have spent a lot of time out there. Although I am not a member, I participated at 8 events at MSR last year (14-15 days) including a shared club day (I set up last June), DE's, Driver's Edge and Apex. I sincerely hope there is more split use of the tracks, although I have not seen it in practice. I am not out there every week, so I may not be out there enough to see it. I unfortunately don't have the time to be out there every weekend or weekday, nor do a lot of the members. MSR did not provide the 1.3 to members this past weekend when the PCA was out there running the short course. Why? I don't know. I don't control the track, I just drive on it like everyone else.

I can answer about some of the other infrastructure at ECR because they are concerns for everyone. They are providing fuel. There is only 1 gas station close by and they don't have premium, so they will be providing premium besides race fuels at the track. There are some very rediculous comments here about pit lanes and worker stations. You can't have a track without a pit lane and corner worker stations are required for most club events. The pit lane is already there and corner worker stations will be in before the first event. I don't know about shops. Keep in mind that PST and Texas Autosports are seperate businesses and moved in to MSR after the track was built and operating. Although I am not a member, I have been doing events there for a long time and have seen many changes: 2 expansion phases of garages, the natural gas wells going in and the first track house going up.

There seems to be a lot of adverse comments here and there shouldn't be. No one should be jealous that there is another option to MSR, nor should anyone stop going to MSR because another one exists. Even as an MSR member, this gives an opportunity for a different experience. We each have to make our own comparison. I am making the decision to join ECR, not to stop doing events at MSR.

I have typically 1-2 days a month I can go out to the track. This gives several advantages for being an ECR member over a MSR member. First, ECR is half the cost the first year. The membership is geared more to my lifestyle. The drive to get out there is a lot better for me. Living in North Dallas, I have to cross Dallas and Ft. Worth to get to MSR. The road, 455, to get to ECR is a blast to drive versus the pain of fighting traffic with no good way to get around it to get to MSR. Last, I like what the Cooks are doing and where they are going. They are making a much bigger investment than Jack did when he started and it is pretty impressive to see what they built and where they are going. For anyone who has driven both tracks, there is no compromise to driving ECR.

 

You didn't answer my question. Is this the same Loren that coined the phrase 'instructor induced spin' to describe their off track excursion at the February DE?

The most likely reason the 1.3 was not run last weekend is because the PCA DE is a very large event. Track entry, exit, fire services, parking for participants and their gear, etc. all gets more complicated the larger the group. EC will face the same issues if they ever build a second track and reach similar membership levels that MSR has.

Colin's points are good ones. In the future there may be no compromise, but for a while there will be. Having on-site services is a big deal. MSR has more than just the 2 shops mentioned. TOPP Racing, MER, Denver Mott, etc. are all based there as well. Besides getting major work done on site without needing a trailer, what are you going to do when you cord a tire at EC? Will make for a short day I guess. And since you have no garage on site, I guess you will have to drive it home that way.

How is EC going to handle gas for a 100 person DE event? Will they bring in tanker trucks or will it BYOG?

I hope EC succeeds but let's be reasonable about what it has to offer. There is a reason the current price is discounted, the product is not as good. You get a strip of asphalt but nothing else, at least for a while. It's going to take time, money, and patience until its up to par. Let's hope the Cook's have all three.

 

When I joined MSR I was still pretty new to the sport. I did it because my work schedule and the DE schedules were not matching up well and I was never going to get the track time in that I wanted. After signing up for an event and having to drop out due to a work commitment I decided to join. My cost for track time increased but I was paying for the flexibility in scheduleing more than anything else.

 

DE groups are good and bad - there is such a proliferation, as many people have commented, why pay to join any track when you can show up at a DE every month? DEs definitely depress the incentive to join a club track. On the other hand, without DE groups to rent tracks, they would not have enough revenue. I will bet that ECR will not have enough member revenue to be self-sufficient for quite a while, especially if the Junior membership demographic is the norm (I do know a couple of regular members). ECR will therefore have to run weekend club events to get the money it will need, unless the Cooks feel like indefinitely subsidizing track users.

And Rob, joining is a chicken and egg thing. SOMEONE has to pay to make the facility a reality, which is why MSR is the only reality in North Texas that has now apparently become self-sufficient - Jack Farr paid to make it happen and subsidized every single user for probably 5 years; DE users included. If the Cooks are unwilling or unable to do that over the next several years, then ECR might not be there when people decide to step up and join. The economics of a club track do not make much sense from a return on investment approach, so only those nutty enough to have a passion and money can make these things happen, a rare breed indeed. So I applaud those who join ECR, as every little bit of revenue helps keep the facility going.

Finally, Car Guy, how do you know the relative commitment betwen the Cooks and Jack Farr? Did you go out to MSR back in 1996 when Jack bought the property? Do you know what he spent? What have the Cooks spent?

And who are you?

 

I drove during the PCA DE event last weekend. Most were raving about the track and loved it though I am bit luke warm on the circuit. The track lacks a high speed sweeper, a type of turn I really enjoy. Instead it has three low speed, double apex turns that are fairly similar in nature to one another and each leads to a long straight. A little repetitive for my tastes. The track is also VERY hard on brakes compared to the other tracks in the area. The change in elevation is nice with 2 uphill climbs and one downhill turn. In a race environment you should be able to pass almost anywhere as the track is very wide, especially in key places. Bottom line, probably a great track to race at but not as much fun as MSR-Cresson for lapping. I'm sure I'll enjoy it more the next time out as I drove pretty conservatively and a little more sliding might make the track more fun.

Another plus for the track, the corner stations were excellent. In the right places, elevated and easy to see. You'd have to be a real moron to miss a flag.

There is still more work to do everywhere. Curbing is not complete and two sections of the track will need to be repaved to smooth out bumps. There is a legal issue with the asphalt company so that might take a while. Not a huge deal really, you just have to know the bumps are there and adjust. Pit out still needs to be finished. The run off areas are still dirt right now but they did a decent job removing the big rocks (better than the new section at Cresson). Still, I would not want to go off right now. The track can get dirty without the grass down but otherwise the grip is excellent. The main building is up and offers some indoor plumbing. The parking areas are a combination of dirt and gravel right now. No other facilities in site.

They had tankers of gas on site in three flavors - 93 and 2 grades of race gas. Other than having to pay with a check, this seemed to work well for everyone. (I brought my own in the trailer so I did not actually use the service).

In all the Cooks did a really nice job with everything and Dave was a super nice guy, taking me out for three parade laps in his street car Friday night. We'll need to be patient over the next several years before the project begins to resemble the other facilities we have. They were a year late getting to this point and I suspect it will be slow gowing for the rest to come in. Nontheless, its great to have another option in the area and I look forward to our NASA race in June.

 

Thanks Rob, good update, I didn't know they were operational at all. Our bike group is supposed to have a track day mid-December, and I was figuring it probably wouldn't happen. Maybe there is still hope!!