Is F1 really the fastest in the world...?

Kinda disagree about those players, considering they are the best to have ever lived. Where did u play D1 football, and where abouts? I too hate women's basketball.

 

That says a lot about the sport...

I was a tackling dummy in the early 1980s for the finest college football program in the country...

 

Same can be said about F1 and its drivers also.

 

Thats always fun

 

I was fortunate enough to be there last year when Zonta in his Toyota F1 set the all-time lap record at Laguna Seca and it was incredibly impressive (especially the braking). I found it interesting the Champ car guys seriously laid waste to it earlier this year.

"Bourdais shattered the unofficial track record at the 2.238-mile road course in Monterey, California – which was much more of an accomplishment that it might seem given the fact that the track record had been set by a Ricardo Zonta in the Toyota F1 car in 2006. The Flying Frenchman used his absolute final lap of the preseason to break the F1 record, stopping the clocks at 1:05.880, getting across the timing line just before a session-ending red flag flew."

From: http://www.cart-racing.com/news/index.php?type=news&ID=5769

Zonta ran a 1:06.309 on a perfect day.

Just to add some data to the discussion. Not saying Zonta in a Toyota is the fastest an F1 car could go around Launa Seca (while Bourdais clearly is in a Champ car), but that it really is pretty close for who is the fastest on a road course between these two series.

Best regards,
Mike

 

The thing is though, because of the aerodynamics and brakes of an F1 car, F1 is much faster on high speed circuits. They are much more fluid and stable at high speeds and they can brake much deeper into corners. Laguna is a tighter track with a relatively short straight. Also, you didn't take into consideration the fact that F1 always optimizes their car for each track, meaning they have specific settings and parts for each track. At Laguna, they pretty much just let Zonta have a go at it for a few laps.

Both Bourdais and Andretti said that the biggest differences were the aero and brakes. Andretti said that when he first tried the Honda F1, he was braking way too early into the corners because he was used to the Indy cars.

 

Get Kimi in his Ferrari, its a sub 1 minute run.

 

Maxorido - I respectfully disagree that they let Zonta have a go at it for a few laps. I was there all three days and they did a bunch of what they called "mapping laps" to optimize the car on both Friday and Saturday. Both of those days they also ran quite a few flying laps as well. Sunday morning they did some additional hot laps, made the final tweaks on the car, and then came back out and set the track record (at the time). The car was very heavy into traction control on many of the corners and he did use the entire track. When Zonta got out of the car he said that is as fast as it would go. Here is a link to the video with the record lap and a discussion with Zonta (turn up the sound, it is awesome!).

http://www.toyota.com/montereyhistoric/videos.html

If you recall, in 2004 Ferrari made a big deal about coming to the Monterey Historics with their F1 car (Ferrari was the honored marque that year) to set the overall track record (then held by a Champ car) and after three days of trying failed to do so with Bertolini driving Schumacher's World Championship winning F2003GA. Now Bertolini is no Schumacher, but I wouldn't just take the fact that F1 cars are obviously the most expensive and techically advanced racing cars today as meaning they are the fastest around a road course.

Regarding your comment about aerodynamics and high speed courses, F1 cars generate most of their downforce by devices that create significant aerodynamic drag. In effect, F1 cars are aerodynamic bricks (not good for high speed courses). In fact, if an F1 car lifts throttle at top speed it will decelerate at over 1G. That is one reason why they have such outstanding braking capabilitites. However, it is a huge liability on a high speed course.

On the other hand, Champ cars are full ground effects and generate serious downforce in a very efficient manner. Much more suited for high speed courses. And one reason why they can't quite brake like an F1 car.

Here is a small comparison between the two (done for the V10 cars):

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Tech/Car_Comparisons.asp

Ferraridude615 - I would be happy to have you point to some data where Kimi in his Ferrari is 10% faster than Zonta in the Toyota (under flying lap situations). If you look at the qualifying in 2006 with Schumacher and Alonso and 2007 with Raikkonen you will see the 2006 times were the same or slightly faster than the 2007 times (so far this year). If you look at the entire field, the slowest qualifier for all of last year and this year is less than 5% slower than the pole sitter. So no, Kimi is not going to come out and run sub 1 minute.

I do think if Kimi in his current car came out and Ferrari spent some time at Laguna Seca, they/he could run faster than the current record. But until they or someone in an F1 car does, I don't think it is so easy to just say F1 is the fastest because they spend the most money and/or are really high tech.

Of course this is just one track (however, it is our only real data point), it would be interesting to take Bourdais in his Champ car and have him go at a track like Monza and compare that to F1 times.

Please bring some tech instead of just personnal opinion. It really does add value to the discussion to have supporting evidence. I have always wondered who was faster myself, so I would like as much information on this as anyone. Thanks.

Best regards,
Mike

 

That is a very interesting comparison.... one thing I notice is F1 has many more restrictions against their cars performance than some of the other leagues.

 

"Do you think that an F1 car would beat a Champ Cars on top speeds on a superspeedway?"
paul/manser, cork in ireland
Dr Dyno
"With much lighter weight, a smaller frontal area and more horsepower, an F1 car with small speedway wings would probably be much quicker than a Champ Car. However, an F1 car hitting a concrete wall might be problematic. The carbon fiber and Kevlar tub of a Champ Car is significantly thicker and stronger than that of an F1 car."

Also, I realize that Toyota was there a few days. My point was that only a few days testing is in no way as suitable as lengthly testing done year in and year out and having new parts designed for a specific track, like the ones on the Formula 1 calendar. If Laguna all of a sudden became a grand prix, then I would bet that teams would be focusing on it even more and thus the lap record would be broken once more.

Also, Champcars have steel brakes instead of carbon ones. They're also about 400lbs or so heavier. I'm willing to bet if F1 teams all converge on Laguna for testing like Champcar has for years, that F1 will come out on top.

 

I was under the impression a few ywars ago that the fastest champ car would have been last on the F1 grid in Montreal

 

A.S Roma,Inter Milan and sometimes bayern munich

 

What was that scoreline again? I'm a fan of both teams, but in that game Roma got spanked.

 

toyota is prolly the best midfield team maybe. zonta is a test driver. bourdais is the best driver in champ car. nothing more to say.

p.s. im a fan of both series but theres nothing like F1.

 

No it doesn't. F1 does not race on that track ... they have just been wanking about. Montreal is the only track they both race at and that is all we need to compare. Champ cars get destroyed there.

Thus maybe Launa Seca requires a special setup/configuration and the F1 guys have not worked it out, simply because they do not care. Now make it a race meeting and things would get serious.

Anyway I am sure there are some tracks that would suit the Champ cars better, but it makes no sense that a car (I think) 250 kg's heavier, has steel brakes (that have improved considerably and now I believe brake similar ... but are still heavier) and is more restricted aerodynamically (by the rules) would be faster. Yes F1 cars are not exactly aerodynamic ... but if it was a race meeting they would drastically change the car to make it work. F1 cars are not the same for just about any race meeting, sometimes massive changes per race meeting.

All in all this 'who is the fastest' between the 2 is a waste of time ... the rules are the boss. Nothing else matters.
Pete

 

I saw something similar on TV, again with Montreal. They said that the Champ cars wouldn't even pass the 130% rule.

 

130% rule?

 

that anyone puts any stock in Zonta goofing about for a few laps at Laguna...that's just nutters!!! you seriously believe the cars are close based on the spiff laps that day??? err...yeah, just look at montreal...the only place where any serious comparisons can be made. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

 

not anymore. it's sad to see United got spanked in San Siro. i hope Milan take the cup tho..

 

I was a huge United fan from the mid '80s til a few years ago. just became disenchanted with the franchise as commercial entity....i'm rooting for AC Milan...they should've won a couple of years ago...but letting Pool come from 3 down to win was just insane...the most ridiculous, bizarre match i've ever seen. Nothing like that had ever happen in the European Cup/CL before, and i suspect we won't see a match like that ever again...bizarre! Forza Rossoneri

 

I agree with all of the above but you have yet to encounter Eagles Canyon Raceway. She is built to the latest FIA spec. IMSA, AMA, SCCA, PCA, Grad Am & so on have been out. Let alone the other's. ECR is well situated geographically. (absolute dead center) & that's why she's getting a lot of attention.......
LL

 

where is this track located?

 

If you run 30% or more slower than the pole time, you don't qualify.

Btw, Despite all the verbose posts, I notice noone has mentioned the fact that Zonta said they were using medium compound tyres. Stick soft qualy tyres on the car and you have a second right there.

 

Spot on (as always).