Fraud in the Dino Auction Action? Not good for buyers & sellers

Why does it seem we keep getting farther and farther away from absolutes? While smooth talking lawyers always seem to find a way to take things apart word by word, the "intent" of law, in my limited education, is that it should be understandable to the common person.

Describing a car, or a horse, in any case should be likewise reasonably understood in common terms a common person would likely be able to understand. If I tell you a horse is believed to be two years old, that I am selling it for the original owner, and that it was only ridden on sundays by a little girl, and that the first and only shoes it ever had are believed to be still nailed to its feet, you would buy the horse based on my description and honesty at a value comensurate with a simularly aged and used animal.

If however you were later to find the horse was in fact 22 years old, that the only days it wasnt ridden was on sundays, and it was ridden every other day by a 500 pound women 12 miles to town and back, and that its feet were so full of old nail holes from changing shoes they looked like swiss cheese, I believe you would feel taken adavantage of and demand someone make amends.

This is what I mean by absolutes. An odometer is taken so much as gospel, and sold that way, that its funny so many put so much wieght on them. But when an internationally recognised auction house waxes poetic about mileage, they seem to be at least somewhat culpable. The car was described as a low mileage one owner car in almost total original condition with a rare option wheel package that never even really existed. One discrepency could be overlooked. Two become very questionable, and three blatant discrepencies screams fraud so loud I am surprised more of you cant see it. If I sold a car on Fchat like this and was found out, I would never hear the end of it from you guys.

There is no way in hell anyone here would pay top dollar for a car described as 4K original miles that would sit still for it if found the car had rolled over. Anyone that knows anything about cars knows what rolled over once means, and thats what this car did. The absence of truth is still a lie.

 

HEY! I'm a lawyer, and I happen to agree with pretty much everything you have said. My opinion is that this seems to be a case of fraud/misrepresentation at worst, and ignorance at the very least (which doesn't say much for the auctioneer).

Mark

 

The language in auction catalogs is a joke. Why do they even bother? About 80% is puffed-up history about the marque and model, and the rest is weasel-words, thinly-veiled disclaimers, litigation-proof obfuscation and "the owner says, but we certainly don't vouch for him" language about the particular car being auctioned.

Jack

 

All of the auctions use phrases like, as new condition, restored to perfection, one of the worlds best, best known example, etc, etc. All followed by the the words,"so says the owner". Takes them off the hook.

 

Doesn't take them off the hook for specific affirmative representations like "4,284 miles," regardless of the "believed to be" language. At a minimum, it makes the auctioneer and the seller seem like idiots, given the history of this specific car.

Mark

 

Mark True enough, however any car, ten years older or more, is legally exempt from true miles. Steve

 

The leather looks very shiney! The red "Daytona" style stripes look too bright. There was no cracking in the leather. In fact it looks brand new! Even if it was original with very few miles the leather would surely dry out...it just looks like a "tuned" honda leather interior. Also it has the Incorrect steering wheel...it is just clear that it is not original.

 

For registration purposes, that depends upon the state. But that doesn't apply for affirmative statements in tort actions for fraud/misrepresentation.

Mark

 

Does the current owner know he was taken? If not, would someone find out who he is? And tell him? And have him take part in this thread?

This act of RM to misrepresent should be taken seriously, because any one of us could have been taken in a similar way if we didn't know where to look and what to look for when buying an auctioned car. If this fraudulent auction style goes un-noticed, who knows what things the auctions houses will let slide in the future?

 

It sounds like you think this is an isolated case.

 

Regarding the mileage: yes, you can tear apart how it was worded, but the auction house did go further to suggest that the condition of the interior, etc was inline with a 5,000 mile car. This is extremely deceptive as it purposely backs up what they would know to be a misleading statement.

 

My concern is with affirmative misrepresentation, not the run of the mill "as is" caveat emptor issues. I don't think that this is an isolated case, but it sure is pretty blatant. Regardless of whether this is a common tactic in the trade, why should anyone continue to tolerate it?

Let me put it this way: WOULD YOU, AS PERHAPS A FIRST TIME BUYER, BE HAPPY THAT YOU HAD BEEN TAKEN IN?

Or, would you, as a potential seller, be happy about the fact that every potential buyer is going to think that you are trying to mess with them from the very beginning?

Sure, you could say, "you win some, you lose some," or "you'll be smarter next time," but why allow anyone to be put through that kind of agony to begin with?

I say RESCIND or SUE!!!

Mark

 

Not in PA.

There's no mileage exemption that I'm aware of, and I've owned cars here 35 years.

Each year, when you renew your registration, and get the car inspected, the mileage is noted on both documents. And, you have to affirm that it is true and correct.

Even classic or antique plates. Although the classic is a permanent registration, they still record your mileage each year at inspection.

DM

 

Many states, such as Washington, don't require annual registration inspections. But, I looked up the regs and forms for Washington, and a sales transaction is supposed to have mileage recorded, or if unknown, then stated as unknown, subject to very limited exceptions. We certainly don't have a 10 year "true miles" exemption rule either.

Mark

 

Did the deal close?

If so, does anyone here know who the new owner is by now?


Mark

 

it's hard to say, the owner/buyer hasn't surfaced. i asked rm about any items that didn't close and if they were going to be reauctioned or go back to the seller, their answer was "yes", but couldn't provide other info.

i suspect the buyer wasn't taken. regardless of the sell price, a car in better shape (interior wise) sold for $13k more two weeks later. if the mechanicals and body are good, which noone has disputed, the interior can be done for that much and still have the means to support the price paid. i truely don't belive that this car brought the money it did because of the low mileage claim. based on dino sales, both public and private, over the last six months, it seems to be market coorect. i have been a big skeptic of what market is and was looking forward to the two auctions here in texas (much less likely to attract the typical auction crowd) to see if market was what i am hearing.

i am not endorsing the market or what it seems to be, but this car found a buyer that one would have to believe was some what knowledgeable to bid what they did. we all called bs based on the description a long time before the auction. why should be so arrogant to think we are the only ones capable of doing so? maybe the bid was appropriate based on the same observations.....

 

Well put, I never thought of it that way...

 

My point wasn't that "we are the only ones capable" of detecting the BS. My point was that affirmative misrepresentation needs to be eliminated, and the source needs to be identified, to avoid poisoning the market.

The buyer could have paid $60,000 for the car, and the description still would have been full of BS, although any damages proven would have been lower.

In the end, I hope the new owner enjoys his new Dino. I just wonder if the car will be described the same way again the next time it is sold since it has now apparently been pretty thoroughly "outed."

Mark

 

We are all big boys. But RM needs a standing up. Great line to end this thread.

John

 

07902 is back on the market.

Listed at CHF 600,000 / USD $680,000 / GBP £450,000.

Seller has confirmed to my contact that it is the ex-Ponder car.

1974 Ferrari 246 'Dino' - 246 GTS MIT BORRANI RÄDER Klimaanlage | Classic Driver Market

Right then...

 

Ummm.... WOW!!!

They are awfully proud of this car.

Shawn

 

It must be the TEXAS factor

 

OMG, "IT'S ALIVE, IT'S ALIVE, THIS THREAD'S ALIVE!"

 

Welcome back 07902!