83 308 QV pricing/offer suggestions?

Ok, one of the 308s I test drove just looks like its back on the market here in Denver. Unfortunately, its at a dealer who tends to have high markups.

I'm going to call tomorrow (Monday) to confirm thats its the same car I test drove. If it is the same car, can someone give me some hints as to what you think a FAIR offer would be.

Here's the stats on the car, assuming its the same one:
1983 308 QV GTS
60K miles approx (58,500 when I drove it 6 months ago)
Blue/Tan
New interior (looks very nice, was the downfall of the car when I looked at it before)
Weak 2nd Synchro (skipped 2nd until warmed up)
Unknown owners, unknown service records, unknown last major (I'll find out more when I talk to the dealer tomorrow, but I think it had a full service history with the car, but older major/belts)
Euro Front spoiler (I think its a US car with Euro bolt-on)
Tubi Exhaust

Any suggestions as to what a fair offer would be for the car? What if I made a Cash offer? What about an Offer with Trade?

The car was priced at $45K before (prior to negiotiations) and the dealer "claimed" it was because of the rare color combo. Now with the new interior, I'm not sure if they will be asking more, but 45K seemed to high even back then (328 territory for a QV with that mileage).

Yes Bullfighter, I'll drop off the Boxster if I get it....

James in Denver
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I remember you mentioning this car before when I was looking. I can't see how this car with a good interior, good paint and recent major would be worth anymore than $35K. I'm no expert, just relating it to my car and what I've seen for sale. Rare color combo but also resale problem colors. Other 328's/308's on Ferrariads.com seem like much better values. Is this the car Bullfighter had a picture of in a previous thread about the Milano Motor's Mondial that was in front of FO Denver?

Jeff

 

Lesson number one:

Being hard to shift into 2nd when cold is not indicative of a weak syncro.

FYI, I was out for a drive when I caught up with that car and it tagged along with my F car for a while. It seemed like an okay car. Paragon is asking too much, though.

I would assume that you know this but given your previous statement regarding weak syncros, I won't leave anything to chance: 1983 does not have rust proofing. One of the 308 experts can chime in but I think that the exact start date of rustproofing is January, 1984.

 

Not sure its the same car, but its not at FOD, a different dealer, and its on thier website as in inventory (just saw that today). I dropped by that dealer last weekend and it was NOT there, so I don't know if its just old and they haven't updated the website, or that just got it back from the interior re-finish.

I was thinking the same range you were, but then again, there is some advantages (tax-wise) to trade rather than buy outright so I might trade out the boxster. Trading leaves less room for negotiations.

Anyone else have any recommendations

ADDED PICTURES, see original post.

James

 

Yeah, I know, maybe Redline fluid would help, but I think the dealer said it was a weak 2nd syncro. It definately was not-as-friendly-to-shift as the 308GT4 I drove.

You keep editing so I keep responding!

Cool, glad its can at least run out nice.

Thats what I'm thinking, but I haven't confirmed its for sale yet, and haven't really talked to Matthew about it since I test drove it a while ago.

Yeah, I know about the rust-proofing, and when I test drove it, I didn't look closely for rust / rust-repair / repainting. However, the 83's have the better exhaust I think.

James in Denver

BTW, the exhaust did make it sound good! (IIRC it was a tubi).

 

You say the car has full history, yet you mention no idea of owners in the past, no idea of when the major was....what history doe it have ? Unless this guy can produce BILLS !! for work....run....dont walk....45K for a car without decent history will need another 45k to make run. Dont get caught up in the shinny paint and chairs.

This car, you need to know if ball joints were ever done, suspension work, brakes...brake lines, feul lines...these cars are getting pretty old, if this stuff was never changed or replaced, then expect to do it, and this is not part of a service....you will need large to make any of these 20-30 yr old cars correct. Dont pay for Paint and Chairs !

oh yeah...ask the question to why a new interior ? Odds are it needs a new mechanical.....run forrest...run !!!

 

That is Chiaro metallic, correct? Paragon, that's right. Is it a consignment car the owner decided to spruce up and put back on the market or owned by Paragon? Make sure about if it's a Euro car or not, if so it could possibly be a problem to register. Good luck. If this isn't the car from FOD, what about the one in the picture I described?

Jeff

 

Boxster's not cutting it, eh?

 

Oh , as a yard stick, for what its worth...i just picked up a 76 glass....original 2 owner car with history from 76(books and tools and original spare tire with the 76 date) with 8,100 miles....and 45K worth of bills for new suspension, brakes, caarbs redone...and all the kiddies, plus a fresh service with rad flush, tranny, brake, belts, and new 328 rims/rubbers, plus the orignal 14s for 70 US(ball park)...oh...and the rugs and interior are all original.
Good luck !
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Yeah, I'm not sure of the history, the short of the story is that I was looking for my first FCar 6-12 months ago and literally bought the PCar Boxster 3 days before I test drove this car (if its the same) and at the time, I wasn't interested in it enought to get into the details of ownership and history. When I call about it this time, I'll be more interested, assuming the price is in a good range.

This is what I forgot, I knew that the suspension on these cars need to be replaced and I would have forgot to ask about that, THANKS!

I'm not sure where Bullfighter got that pic, FOD did not have that car last time I looked. They STILL have that Prugna one, and a Red/Tan one thats a bit on the questionable side due to the history (at least thats the story I got from someone else, don't mean to slam that car).

Well, not quite. My job was a bit unstable for a while, still not the best, but its a bit better now so I feel more comfortable getting a different weekend car. That said, the boxster isn't bad, I just want my first FCar.

James in Denver
PS Nice Glass car, Big Red.

 

Personally speaking, I would be keen to buy a 308 (especially my first F car) from Derek at FoD. They're in this to cultivate repeat clientele and you know that they'll be around to make things right. They want you to have a good ownership experience. Not knocking Paragon at all but I think that people think that FoD is snooty or too overpriced, or something when in reality the assurance that you would get from buying from Derek would be well worth a couple of extra $$'s. Just my $0.02 but as someone who's bought several Ferraris and owns "keepers," these are just opinions I've accumulated over the years.

 

I'd agree, at $45K for an '83 with 60K miles, and an off color, it's priced quite high.

It's not the same car - the one at FoD was an '86 328, this one's an '83 308. Different colors as well. Although I like the light blue on this '83 - sharp.

I test drove the 328 in the pic in '05 and took the photo. I posted on the other thread to illustrate blu chiaro.

I wouldn't be above $40K on this one, and as much as I like the blue (azzurro metallic?) it's not worth a premium.

I know this one's local, and that's a big plus and a big comfort factor. But with no service records, fairly high miles, an off color, and a pre-rustproofing model year (Jan. '84 was the start), I think you could do a lot better. I would likely not make an offer if the dealer is starting at $45K.

(And regarding the synchro on 2nd: when the car has warmed up a bit, 2nd should be accessible without forcing it, and there should be absolutely no grinding. But as posted above, a 'reluctant' 2nd gear is common on 308s and 328s.)

 

I don't know if "Derek" was who I dealt with but I made some inquiries about the prugna 308 they have had(and apparently still have 7 months later), some real interest and asked about getting a PPI done with an independant and basically they told me that they were not agreeable with doing that. To not be agreeable with getting a PPI done( I was agreeable to paying for it and arranging all transportation) doesn't seem like they have the customer's best interest in mind for this car. I just don't trust a dealership saying they did the service and inspection and everything is great when they sell the car as well. I certainly respect what your saying and it's worked great for you but I thought FOD's attitude about that car was wrong.

Jeff

 

Jeff,
Full disclosure here: other than my F430 (which is not here yet) I have not purchased any of my Ferraris from FoD. I have done my service work there and have built a relationship with the dealership through that. I have also almost purchased a couple of cars from them and dealt with Derek (they have several sales people, of course) extesively on those. Each time, I thought that I was treated well, dealt with honestly, and the entire process was very courteous and professional. I do know several people who purchased cars from there that felt that the dealership stood behind the cars to the max.

In all honesty, if I called any dealership and they refused to let me do an independent PPI, I would feel the exact same way as you. However, I also know that other than Dave Helms in Boulder, there's no one around that's a high enough caliber for FoD to truly put their faith in. FWIW, I do know that they've sent many of their used cars for independent PPI's at the buyer's request. But I can't remember if any of those cars were Ferraris.

I guess this is how I should say it: If I were to buy another model of Ferrari and FoD had the one that I want, and the price was close enough to a realistic market selling price, I would not hesitate to buy from them. I know that they would stand behind the car. However, I've also owned several Ferraris. I know what to look for, what to ask, and the conversations to have with the techs. I could feel pretty comfortable without a PPI *IF* I were dealing with a firm that I knew and believed in depending on the answers to my questions.

 

I met Derek, younger but very nice. The entire crew at FoD seems great, as did Matthew and his crew at Paragon and I CANNOT TELL YOU how much respect I have for Dave Helms, he spent WAY too much time with me on the phone talking about the cars when I was looking, and he's NOT a dealer, but he will get my maintenence when I get my first car.

That said, I also would be upset with a refusal to do a PPI from someone else.

However, the issue of PPIs, according to Dave, is always tricky. Both sides get a bit testy. If the PPI shows small problems, the seller gets pissed cause he/she may lose the deal. If the PPI comes out looking good but the car has problems later, the buyer gets pissed feeling like they should have been discovered/disclosed. Dave said he's not keen on doing them unless he has no vested interest in either party. He doesn't want to lose relationships if a deal falls through or a buyer has issues. Its got to be a really sticky place to be in.

Back to the subject at hand, I'm calling tomorrow to see about the blue/tan and see what they are asking. I'll let everyone know.

James in Denver

 

What's wrong with younger? The guy really knows his stuff and doesn't bat an eye if you don't look like the typical "old boys' club" Ferrari buyer.

Anyways, I will tell you first hand that Dave really knows everything in these cars inside and out and is supremely talented. He's worked on all kinds of Ferrari race and street cars and is one of the few that can really troubleshoot issues. He's a class act all the way around. He was the only guy that I let touch my 355, even though it was hard to get up to his shop in Boulder, get back down to Denver for work, and get back up to pick it up.

See what they say about that 308. I think that it would make a great first Ferrari if you got it at the right price, even if it is a GTS (hear that Bullfighter?).

 

FWIW, in 2005 around the time I drove that blue 328, a friend bought a recently serviced 355 from FoD and had an oil leak crop up a week after delivery. FoD stepped up, pulled things apart, and put it right on their nickel. This was a lot of work, and the new owner (Mark G.) was quite happy with their willingness to take care of things.

I personally wouldn't worry about a PPI on a car I was buying from them.

If he's worried about messing up his hair, he needs a GTB.

 

$45k for a 308? Here's a perspective; I'll sell you my '87 328 w/ 55k miles and 5 years worth of receipts for $45k. I'll include a fresh major and new rear tires. And my car is not for sale. It's even been in Denver, it broke down there the first day I owned it. FoD replaced the water pump for me and was nice enough to keep it for a few days until I could fly back up there and drive it home.

 

There really is no way to price a car without knowing what has or has not been done to it recently. If it's fully serviced, and fully functioning- I would say it's around a $30k-$34k car. That price drops if it needs service, suspension, etc. JMHO

A new interior would be really nice, if done well. That is a big ticket job, and would bump up the price.

 

Plus there are three hot women in bikinis who always hang out around that car. Not so for the 308.

 

I'm having a hard time figuring out if that Blue/Tan 308 QV is really for sale. Seems Paragon it undergoing some changes, changed thier website and it appears to not be in thier inventory on thier new site.

I haven't got ahold of the owner/dealer yet, Matt was out. I suspect the car is sold. I'll let everyone know what I found out as soon as I can. It really was a nice car, but I think it was priced high.

James in Denver

 

I think the blue 308 that you are referring to was once owned by Bill Orth. He is the GM of FOD. He has been there for quite awhile. I remember speaking to him about the car 6 yrs ago at least. He bought that car for his daughter. It was an original car without paintwork or any exterior issues. He is a really nice guy. Very helpful. He also comes across as a straight shooter. You should call and ask him about the car. It may have had some service work done in the service dept for Bill and his daughter. At that time the car had 37k on the odometer. Hope it helps you find out.

As far as pricing goes, there are really no good value guides on older 308/328's and mondials. 45k is way too much for that car common sense will tell you. No sale blue is not a rare color. They didn't make too many because nobody wanted to buy the color. You just have to decide what the car is worth to you and step up. You may not get your money back but do you really care? Be prepared to spend as much as the amount of the car if something goes wrong with it. Even cars with all the records might or might not make it home from the place you buy it from. That is why they are listed as "as is no warranty".

 

Well, I'll admit it scares me a little. I'd expect that, if I buy a car with good records, a recent major, and a clean PPI from a respected independent, that I should be RELATIVELY safe. I'm aware that I'll spend $1-$3K /year on maintainance. Will I still set aside $5-$10K for "just in case"? Yes, but the idea that I may need to spend the price of the car again is a bit off-putting.

Am I being unrealistic?

- Paul

 

I've had my 308qv for amost 2 years and I "may" ave $500/year in maintenance. That includes oil, gear oil changes and new injectors, fixing little things like antenna, cracked lenses etc. This doesn't include stashing about $800/year toward the 5 year timing belt major service. (if you plan to keep the car for several years.)
My 308 has been MUCH cheaper to own then my 95' Lexus SC300.
I would suggest a $10k emergency fund but keep in mind, a well maintained 308 is very reliable and parts are reasonable, for an exotic, assuming that you do the work yourself. The 308 is probably the easiest Ferrari to work on for the DYI'er.
Buy the BEST car you can find , NOT the cheapest and have it inspected by a Ferrari expert before purchase.
Then Drive and Enjoy, your life will never be the same again !!!!