McGehee/Forza Supercharger Install!!!

Put me on the top of the list! **sigh** does this thirst for power never end?!?

 

You're FIRST! you'll be contacted next week

 

Thanks Scott.

I do have excess to some talented people. Verell, Birdman, Spider348, JWise, rsvmille676.

So if i pull the trigger all i need is pizza and beer for the boys to come down and help. Well....... maybe some more tools too.

The other question i wanted to ask is will there be manuals for the different models?

So when some one gets it for there 308QV will it have a few different pages then the guy with a 2v?

I don't know all of them by hard, but i think you said something like 5 different models?


Chris

 

Nice looking package and the install looks very clean. A buddy and I installed turbos on our cars over the winter. What a difference... man are they fun to drive now! We are running 9psi of boost and making around 304 hp and 260 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels. What boost level are you running? Have you had any issues with the CIS? While tuning we found that the A/F would rise to 14ish at around 4,000 rpm and then drop to around 12 at 5,400 rpm and then rise back up to 14 at around 6,500 rpm. (graph below) The A/F never seemed to get dangerously high but it would be nice to be able keep it under 13 across the board. Not sure if that is doable with the stock CIS. Any ideas on adjustments to help with this?

Again.. congratz on the great results!!

Oh.. BTW here is the information I posted a while back on our Turbo fun

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=131709&highlight=308+turbo
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Looks good Mike! Quite a difference isn't it?

You should get your self a boost gauge and measure the boost. 10 psi should yield about 310-320 rwhp on your engine, so you're are probably only at about 6-8 psi.....plenty of room let to go up, but you need to measure the boost first.

 

it's not a psi issue but a CIS issue, that's getting sorted this coming week. can't make power with a 16:1 AFR

 

Thanks! Yes, big time! I'm still a bit cautious while I'll waiting for the replacement WUR so I can get the a/f where it needs to be.

I've already ordered a boost gauge and also an a/f gauge... I know I need to be able to keep a close eye on what's going on, especially as we're trying to optimize it, and definitely as we boost pressure even more in months to come.

 

I'm still wagering it's at about 6 psi boost. Getting the mixture from 16:1 to 13:1 should add 5% to maybe 10% more power I'd guess, still well short of were 10-12 psi should be and I know QVs are air pigs.

 

Mike,

How's things going with the SC??

Updates please.

Scott,

Bump.

 

waiting on some new CIS parts from larry, then mikes back to the dyno.

 

Yeah, that new warm-up/fuel regulator should be here Wednesday.

I've now got A/F and boost gauges for cockpit install too when I get the chance.

 

Cool - where are you going to put them?
I've often thought that Ferrari left out THE MOST IMPORTANT GAUGE for a Mondial: a voltmeter/ammeter.

 

I'm going to put the A/F gauge where the clock is on the center console. I also bought a replacement for the oil temp gauge that matches the look (same brand) of the a/f gauge since they're side-by-side and it's just about IMPOSSIBLE to get gauges that really match the old original ones. These gauges are kind of "stealth", though. When there's no power to them, they're blacked out! www.prosportgauges.com -- they're a little bit "ricer" but I can live with it for these three since they're all separated from the main dash cluster.

The boost gauge will go in the "coin holder" to the lower left of the steering wheel. It will not only show me boost as the needle moves, it has the capability to recall and display peak boost it encountered between resets.

Interestingly enough, the a/f gauge can serve dual purpose since it's digital. Besides the graphic display of the a/f, it can also tell you the a/f ratio number digitally in the center of the gauge, OR can be set to display as a digital volt meter (number) if you prefer.

 

Hey guys, maybe a stupid response, but are you using a boost regulated FPR in the system?
I know of a few out there that raise fuel pressure in relation to boost....can bring the A/F below 14 under boost

As an example below....


From Vortech:

"Super Fuel Management Unit

Vortech's Super Fuel Management Unit (Super FMU) is a tuner's dream. It permits complete tailoring of the fuel pressure curve relative to manifold pressure, including upper and lower limits. The Super FMU can be used in a series or as a stand alone component. Its super high-flow capacity can handle large single and dual pumps while fluctuation and pressure creep is eliminated. The unit can also be used to adjust static pressure. Features include four pre-calibrated gain ratios: 7:1, 5:1, 3.25:1 and 2.5:1. Easily replaces our standard non-adjustable FMU."
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It seems like a pretty good idea in general. It would need to be installed on the return hose I think with CIS. It sounds like Scott's got another tweak to accomplish the same thing on the way.....then there is always EFI which makes the problem moot.

 

a RRFP would not work on the CIS system.
the CIS is in reality a hydraulic system to start with and the fuel pressure from the pump is the upper limit. the WUR supplies the control pressure to the metering rod for fuel delivery based on air passing the plate. for the basic K-jet system there is no 'check' to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR so the system will continue to add fuel based on the control pressure set by the WUR, the lambda system is going to try and maintain the stoic AFR of 14.7:1 and will do a good job at it.

the lambda CIS also uses a distributor body that flows less fuel than the k-basic, this should not be a problem until you step above 10psi in boost. I have been able to work with some of the best in the industry for CIS to get it 'tuned' for boost applications and tailored to customers car.

Mike will be doing more dyno runs with the modified system and the group here will get to see the results.

some tech info, in working with the CIS gurus and developing the supercharger last yr the big question was how much boost the system could handle, I've thrown 20psi at it and it ran perfectly. the operating control pressures upper limit within the distributor body is around 105psi and also related to the fuel pumps output as well. remembering that the system is hydraulic and using the fuel to operate is key here, the sensor plate works against the air flow and 'meters' fuel. that's basic fuel metering, the adjustments are made via the control pressure regulators i.e. the WUR, how that is setup determines the ARF and the limit of what you can do. theoretically it should handle more boost than the engine could ever survive under.

the one complaint to the CIS system has always been it's far to restrictive to airflow and costs you HP. the system is excellent in metering fuel, the trick is getting the air past the sensor plate.

 

I'd been driving a 360 this weekend at a charity event courtesy of another owner... fabulous car. I took the supercharged 308 out this afternoon for a drive on some fun roads... ok, it's NOT a 360, but it's certainly as much fun as 348's I've driven in the past, maybe more so. The car drives with a big WOW and SMILE factor for me, no question about that. I still don't like the sound of the supercharger at idle... but it's not an issue once you're moving!

The WUR should be here tomorrow... the old one makes the car run poorly when cold and makes hot re-starts VERY difficult (and sometime impossible). Again, not supercharger issues, but a coincidental problem that I need to fix before we can fine-tune the SC setup.

 

Scott,
I though you adjusted the system pressure to 5 bar or something and the balance went down the return line, that's not true? The pump is actually dead-headed? I could would have swarn there was a return line. What happens then if you change to a larger pump with a higher flow rate or dead-head pressure?

Have you installed a boost gauge to measure the manifold pressure or is this still the pre-throttlebody 20 psi.....that one doesn't really count you know........

 

turn the boost up

 

And......???

 

The CIS works on pressure differences and these differences create the flow. Increasing the system pressure also increases the pressure that is working to close the differencial pressure valves.

So in short increasing the pressure won't work. To explane it fully would take several pages and then only engineer types would understand it.

Larry

 

I hear what you're saying, but if it were actually true, the system shouldn't need a return line or some 6 pages of pressure adjustments in the WSM should it because nothing would change right?

I would have to guess that uping the pressures have to up the flow....it might bugger up the mixture at other rpm/throttle position beyond use, but it seems like any one point could could be fixed that way, no?

 

It returns to the tank what it does not use, at the speed it is running. At idle it returns much more than at wide open. A 0 438 100 034 like on the 308 will flow 1240 ccpm at wide open, at idle it flows about 40 ccpm, So it needs to return the 1200 unused cc to the tank. I have done lots of testing to find ways to get more flow from a fuel distributor and consult with a chemical engineer to confirm my findings. This is done on a flow bench and the results are actual flow readings. I understand why your thinking that increasing the pressure will help, because it does on an electronic fuel injection. To understand CIS, FIRST forget everything you know about other types of fuel injection. Trust me it's got it's own set of rules.

Larry

 

Well that explains it, you needed a mechanical engineer

I know it's way harder to re-tune those systems than it seems like it should be and everything you're saying is probsbly completely right. The very first thing I did on my car was duck the problem by putting the CIS system on ebay and never looked back.

 

Its already the day after tomorrow Mike, don't keep us waiting like this