How about the only Axis aircraft that had the potential to stay with the P-51 during WWII. Macchi Castoldi MC202 Folgore http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/macchi.htm http://www.regiamarina.net/arsenals/planes_it/macchi/macchi_us.htm
I thought the FW190-D or the TA-152 were considered pretty much the equal of a Mustang as well...or at least Chuck Yeager intimates so in his book. Speaking of pilot-killers, even the highly regarded ME-262 jet fighter is widely reported to have been a real ***** with one of the engines out of commision - an event that was probably far from rare. And then of course there was that rocket powered Komet thing that could just blow up in your face if you even looked at it wrong. But then, as Chuck says, "it's the man, not the machine".
True, the FW190-D was a great airplane and the TA-152 was a very similar varient, maybe the fastest WWII piston. I should have said "one of the only." As for the ME-262 and the ME-163 "rocket egg"....The first was facinating, but really peiced together as it was late in the war....The egg would have been better left undeveloped....a hyrdazine bomb turn glider...what fun!
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The FW-190D series was a stop-gap design aimed at countering the A series poor high altitude performance. The single staged supercharged BMW801 series radial engine gave fantastic performance.... under 20K feet. Over that and performance dropped off quickly. When the FW-190 A series first appeared in numbers in early 1942, it was the scourge of the RAF. The Spitfire MKV was slower, climbed slower, rolled much slower and could neither dive with nor zoom climb with the 190. The Spitfire could turn much tighter, but that wasnt much help as 190 drivers simple refused to engage in prolonged turning dogfights. The 190 drivers could and did dictate the fights. The RAF too a severe beating through "Focke-Wulf summer" of '42 and until the Spitfire MKIX arrived in numbers to bring things close to even the FW ruled the sky over Europe. FW-190A5 and A6 (particularly the A6-R6 with nitrous injection AND water/methanol injection) were a fairly even match for the P-51, P-47 and P-38s at altitudes under 15K with numbers, pilot skill and tactical factors far more critical than simple aircraft performance. The later 190A8 and other varients added lots of weight and heavy armament aimed to bring down large bombers and the fighter performance suffered. The D series substituted the Jumo inline engine for the BMW radial and lengthened the fuselage in front of the tail to counter the longer nose. It was faster, particularly at altitude, but it neither rolled as quickly nor zoom climbed as quickly as the earlier A series, both key factors given the Luftwaffes "Boom and Zoom" preferred tactics. The D was able to operate at higher altitudes much better than the A, but still nowhere near as well as planes like the P-47M (a real beast at 30K). The Ta-152 was really an entirely different plane. It used the DB-605 inline engine, had an even more highly modified fuselage and an entirely different MUCH longer wing. Very few saw combat, but it did have fantastic performance at altitude and the highest ceiling of any piston engine fighter ever (close to 50K ft). The German fighters in many parameters DID offer performance on par with allied fighters. Many high scoring Luftwaffe experten did extremely well in the old ME-109. In a low altitude, slower speed dogfight an ME-109G6 with a good pilot at the controls would make most P-51 drivers wish they had stayed at home. (of course far more fights took place at 20K+ where the allied planes had a clear advantage) By early 1944 however it really didn't matter. The USAAF was putting up 1000 bomber missions with 1000 escorts and the Luftwaffe didn't have 300 flyable fighters in all of Europe. It became a war of attrition and no matter how hot a stick some German pilot may be fighting 20 to 1 odds brings a short time expectancy. By late 1944 there were 2 types of German pilot: 19 out of 20 had under 100 hours total flying time and were simply meat on the table. They were targets, nothing more. The 1 guy however may have 100+ kills, 500+ combat missions under his belt having flown combat ops for 5+ years and be most allied pilots worst nightmare. Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover both got shot down.... Chuck evaded but Hoover spent his war as a POW. Terry
Very interesting observations Terry. I have a picture of one of the long-wing TA-152 variants, and you just cannot believe the width of the special prop blades! And the wing looks like something that belonged on the U2. This reference intimates that there were also at least one or two TA-152 experimentals with the normal wing lenth as well. It further says that Kurt Tank himself would test fly the long wing, and relates how he got bounced by some Mustangs and just pulled away from them with complete ease. BTW, was it not a long-nose 190 that shot down Yeager? James
I wish we could get this over on AviatorChat.com. Maybe I should just move AviatorChat.com here like LamborghiniChat.com.
The giant paddle blade style props that the late war FW-190s and Ta-152 used were indeed massive. Equally amazing is that they were made from laminated wood! There were literally dozens of variants of experimental late war Ta series aircraft. It seems they tried every possible combination of available engine and wing configuration. An amazing waste considering the resources but then again it doesn't seem to have detracted from production. The Germans produced amazing numbers of fighter planes, even in September of 1944 after years of bombing efforts against they aircraft manufacturing plants the Luftwaffe accepted over 4,000 new fighters for the month. Good thing planes are not much good without pilots and fuel. Yeager was shot down by an FW-190 A series. The D series was not yet operational when he was shot down, they didn't begin combat operations until late July of '44 and the first full unit to equip with the 190D-9 (III Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 26) wasnt fully operational on it until October. Terry
Not a bad idea. Remember how this thread wandered away from the original subject? http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60953&highlight=finally+TR
On the market a P-51 A is around $975k, and a True "D" model in good condition is about $1.25m A real trainer and not a reproduction will be $1.5m I have spent a lot of time with the Reno Air Race guys and know someone that is currently looking at 4 P-51's should anybody be interested.
Speaking of FW-190s, I thought that I had seen just about every WWII battle film ever made. But I ran across this haunting film on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ajMSlwoWo It is German aerial gun camera film taken mostly from FW-190s as they attacked B-17s, B-24s, and even a P-38 that seemed to escape. I can't read German, so maybe somebody can translate what the slates on the film says.
There is a 1945 Corsair FG-1D for sale at Provenance Fighter Sales...fully restored asking $4.0M. Here she is... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ive got tons and tons of WWII gun cam film, mostly on VHS Angriff basically means attack in German. The other text is telling the measured distance to the target at the beginning of the attack and at the point where the attacker broke off, ammunition expended, estimated relative speed.... Ive got those clips on various tapes, the very first one of an FW-190 head on attack on the B-24 is among the most brutal air to air clips I have ever seen. The FW hits the cockpit of the B-24 right at the point of gun convergence just shredding the entire cockpit area. No question both pilots, the top gunner and probably the navigator and bombardier all were killed in that attack. 4 x 20mm cannon firing at 600 rounds per minute set for the rounds to all converge at 200 meters or so is downright scary to think about. No wonder they called the FW-190 the "Wurger".... Butcher Bird. Some of the other attacks are noted as "Separations". The Germans awarded different levels of "kill" or attack when it came to heavy bombers via a sort of points type system. An outright kill on a 4 engine bomber in formation was the highest type, followed by a separation which was inflicting enough damage to force the bomber out of formation and the last was a final kill on a crippled straggler. Terry
The one thing that I noticed on the German film was the B-17 being approached from the rear by the German plane. It did not appear that the tailgunner was firing the twin .50s at the German plane at all. He was probably dead, near death, or helping man another position in the plane. The B-17 looked like a sitting duck when approached from the rear with nobody manning the tail gunner's position.
There is one more B-24 clip that is even worse. And I'm sure you've seen it. It is a B-24 being filmed from the left front by another American plane in the formation. Right as the camera is rolling, the B-24 catches a flak burst in the left wing root. (Unless it was fuel vapors that exploded, which was not unheard of in a B-24) Either way, the wing snaps off and the whole plane instantly starts falling downward in a ball or fire. Who knows if anybody ever got out.
I wanted to post the CJ-6 on AviatorChat but didn't see any "for sale" section, so I just hijacked this thread.
What I respect about this era was that the best and brightest engineers on all sides were locked into reciprocating engine product developement not as a "Neat" sideline (read car) but as a matter of National survival. Super/Turbochargers, water injection, nitrous, and all the "recent" automotive developements were perfected in the 30s and 40s.
On a similar thought.... Back in the early 1980s when BMW was developing its 1.5 liter turbocharged F1 engine, running insane levels of boost and eventually producing up to 1500hp in qualifying tune, they had really extreme detonation problems and struggled to get the engine to produce max power without grenading. They came down to fuel being a the prime issue. At the time, fuel brews were not restricted and thus the teams could play around with different mixtures. Apparently the BMW engineers tried all sorts of ideas and different fuel mixtures and yet nothing yielded the results they needed. That is until they began digging into the company archives. BMW did massive amounts of research on various fuel blends and brews to allow extremely high levels of supercharger boost on the BMW801 series 14 cylinder radial engine in the FW-190. The F1 guys used this research and were able to come up with the fuel blends that made the BMW turbo engine so effective. Terry
FIVE P-51 Mustangs (incl. Tom Cruise's) at Planes Of Fame Air Museum, Chino CA >>> Nice vid if you like P-51's >>> Tom Cruise's plane at 10:50 Just click on 'Watch on YouTube' link below .
At the beginning of this thread Mustangs were 1.2 ish. In 2025 a unrestored flyer is 2.9 plus A really nice one asking price is 4.3. There are several Mustang hoarders, I know of one person who has 5 and another who has 7. There are several others who have more than 2.
I took a picture of this one at Bermuda Dunes a couple of years ago... I loved it because, at least in my circles, I just don't see unrestored, used, flying P-51s.... I was told she was on her way to a total restoration, though. Image Unavailable, Please Login
And she looks quite different now... quite the history on that airframe. https://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/serial/44-63350
