F360 clutch thread.

Brian has helped me out on many occasions and never has he been rude or condescending. I hope that he is not gone. He is a true asset to our community.

Birdman

 

This board took a hit when RD left. End of story!

 

I hope he is just taking a well deserved break from FChat. I also hope the Moderator's monitor closely the people on here that have caused him to take a break otherwise before you know it we won't have any experienced tech's on the board.

 

Almost 7400 posts, endless PM's and emails.....with 90+% of them helping folks where there is no chance of him ever getting paid for his time, and Brian Crall owes WHO, WHAT? Absolutely over the top foolish, NO make that stupid!

I walked away from this site for months as I could no longer deal with some folks that told me I had no clue about what I posted. Thirty freaking years keeping this Marque running and on the road for the two of us and a few self proclaimed experts giving advise that would damage owners cars and yes, it grates on us. Brian is able to voice his dislike of this, I am not. Its a personality thing and I admire his ability to express it. Why do you think he gets aggravated? Anyone here think it jealousy? Get real!

In the last half dozen years fixing these cars has become more of a janitorial service repairing other peoples work rather than maintaining a car. It takes 3 times longer trying to figure out what some dip did to hack their way around a problem than to fix it properly the first time. **** rolls down hill and guess whos standing at the bottom?

I am disgusted with the direction this thread went. Brian is not the type of guy that beats his head against the wall because it feels good when he stops. Every day he chooses not to participate in this site is a great loss to all here.

Dave

 

Agree completely its like a bunch of school kids

 

Well, Ernie and I butt heads a lot but I'm with him on this one. A guy with 7000 posts who has information that will help the community in general is indeed "rude and arrogant" not to share it. If you don't "have time" to help with simple requests, don't tease people with useless "look it up yourself" replies. Why say, "I know how to do it, but I won't tell you" except to stir the pot?? Not to say he hasn't been an asset to the community, only in this case he was in the wrong. Or do great mechanics never have to be accountable for their actions?

The only exception would be for propritary information; something a Ferrari engineer might know but not be at liberty to make public. No one suggested that with the flywheel spec, so I will assume that's not the issue.

Ken

 

I think in fairness to Brian one of the frustrations is with those people who post a qustion and if they actually have a Ferrari have never bothered to open that secret book called the Owners Manual or come on the Board and dont even use the search button. I have only been around the Board for 3 years and I know in that short time that I get irritated seeing some of the qustions that are repeat posts or could be answered by reading the manual it contains a lot of good stuff.

 

I think the issue here is similar to the old story.

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for one day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life.

 

Okay kids, this is what I feel really pushed Brian over the top, but its been coming, you could feel it. This "prospeked" is not some enthusiast trying to keep his car running, or trying to save a few bucks fixing it himself, he is (in his own words) an auto technician, who has spent more than the last 18 months working exclusivly on Ferrari's, and specifically 360's and 430's, and seemingly has not one iota of service books to perform any work?

When I was 11 years old I bought a factory service manual so I could work on my Honda mini-trail 50. I was setting valve clearances, adjusting the carb, clutch, brakes, anything I could adjust I was doing it, and by the book! Ditto when I was 14 and had a bigger Honda. I had a factory shop manual for my MGB/GT when I was 16 years old, and it wasnt cheap for me to buy let me tell you, not by any means. I think it was over $200, and that was in 1975! Man, buying a $200 book at 16 is quite a feat. And like an idiot I let it go with the car. I bought parts and service manuals for a 308, years before I ever owned one, and I have at least a Haynes manual for just about everything ive ever owned. I honestly cant imagine anyone in thier right mind working on anything, much less a Ferrari, without having adequate materials to reference. What are the torque specs, setting clearances, fluid capacities, etc. HTF do you operate flying in the dark with no references?

And to come in here and expect seasoned Ferrari factory trained mechanics to drop what theyre doing and bend over and help you, when you cant even take the time and spend the money to have the proper materials? Yeah Brian is a bit crass, he even told me to kiss his ass once, LOL. But dammit, so many people come in here, they cant even read a GD owners manual for thier car, cant download a free one from the owners site for free, wont take the time to learn even the simplest things about the car, but will time and again ask how to check the oil, how to put the key in, what flavor of air to put in the tires, or some other menial task, etc. I absolutely feel Brians frustration. We arent little kids that need someone to hold our fricken hand, yet thats what it seems some of you want, ya'll need to grow up and act like adults. If I had acted like that out at the airport, or anywhere I worked, I would have been shown the door. No, I was expected to pick up a manual like everyone else and read and understand WTF I was doing, just like everyone else, not stand there like a little girl asking daddy how. If your working on machines for a living, first read and understand, then and only then, ask something beyond the book. Thats what I do here, I want to know "more" than whats in the book. I dont need Fchat to feed me the book like a baby taking milk.


And really, who in thier right mind would want to take thier car, any car, even a garden tractor to a "mechanic" who charges good money, but does not even have the simplest information on the machine he works on, but relies on others to stop all they are doing and ferret him specs and details so he can keep working? Thats BS from the word GO! And you have the audacity to tell Brian to leave and go back to work? FU! He was a consultant for Christ sake, consultants are around to consult arent they? And you tell him to go away? Who TF are you? We all just lost a major resource in Brian, and anyone who doesnt understand that, really has no clue. Keep running off valued people, and next thing all were going to have is a chat room full of disfunctional Pacleds who dont even know how to check thier fricken oil. Good luck asking them anything technical. "Oh, we dont know how it works, we just bought it so we'd look smart". "Can you fix our car"?

If I had any time or room I would be fixing Ferrari's myself. At least I know how to phuggin read, and have enough respect for people not to PO the ones who been down the road ahead of me. Ask reasonable questions of reasonable people, showing enough respect that you at least understand what the hell your doing, and you'll get a reasonable answer. Come in treating experts like a-holes and youll get nothing. Thank you all once again people, for helping to turn Fchat just a little bit more into a vacuum. Oh, and you guys ran Ferrarifixer off too? Who's next?

 

Every minute of every day, no different than anyone else in any profession. I can accept that we do not agree on this. There is no right or wrong answer, simply opinions.

Respectfully,

Dave

 

Absolutely. This is exactly what I tried to say in the other thread (that's now closed). Right on, Dave.

 

Ken, imagine a hamburger flipper who is doing open heart surgery and being paid $100K for the job. Now imagine him asking senior surgeons for ongoing instructions every five minutes. Surgeons hold each other up to a higher standard than lay people. So do mechanics. When I was trying to teach my step son mechanics and how to work on his car, I showed him basic principles and showed him how to look up data in the service manual. And I tried to show him how not to bash his knuckles into sharp objects for example. At some point I expected him to do it all on his own. Constantly asking me how to do this or how to do that, or what a torque spec for this or that was, eventually started to get me POed. I showed him the books, he can read, I expected him to figure it out. I wanted to hear the tougher questions, the why questions, not the hows.

For a lot of mechanics, its a pride and competition issue. We feel that if you have the balls to pick up a wrench and screw with something, and hang out a shingle as Joe Mechanic to make a buck, then you also should have the responibility and respect to understand what the hell your doing. This is a lot different from guiding a noob through a valve and timing belt service on a 308, those guys admit they dont know what the hell they are doing. Its the guys who are out there hacking away on cars who dont have a clue what they are doing, and wont admit it, and cant even open up a fricken book and read, that PO people who work on machines as a hobby and a livelyhood. Especially when these same self appointed hacks start arguing with you about how to do a job properly, simply because they are usually trying to get around major steps and making excuses why they wont or shouldnt have to do it by the book. And your an effing idiot for following the manufacture because they only put those steps in there because they are rip offs and want to make money off needless service.

Brians best service here was simply allowing us to peek in and see things from the factory service side, to see how things were handled, what major issues certain cars were having and why. He might not realise I had a lot of respect for him, but I did. And I agreed with most of what irritated him, especially people acting ignorant and stupid, and to busy to bother reading a simple owners manual. Some clown coming in here claiming to be wrenching on 360's and 430's for a living who doesnt even own a service manual is just about to fricken much.

If your going to pick up a gun, I would greatly appreciate that you know about guns before being stupid enough to touch the damned thing. If not, it would be a great show of respect to admit you know nothing, and would someone please show you. Starting up a shop and working on high end cars without a clue is just about as stupid IMHO. And Brian was forever complaining about cars he had to go back and fix after some clueless hack F'd it all up. The customer is the one who ultimately suffers, after forking over buckets of money to have guys like Brian undo all the BS the last hack the car seen did to it. I think Brian did a great service nailing people like that, but sadly, it seemed to be mostly unappreciated. And no, in this case he does not need to be accountable. Stupid people working on cars without books need to be accountable. Brian was right on to smoke that guy, but most of you just dont get it. From Brians perspective he might feel it just dont matter anymore.

I hope he comes back, its POing me to see good people keep leaving. But if not, well, I wish ya well Brian. I still aint kissin your ass though

 

Brian has stated before that he left this site for good on more than one occasion, he'll be back again I am sure.

I have noticed a change in his posts from a few years ago, much more detailed and helpful then vs now he seems to want to yell at everyone, maybe this site is a way for him to vent on actual Ferrari owners vs customers that act the same or ask the same questions in his own shop.

I do agree with Earnies statement RD gives basically vague info that is not very usefull other than usually diagnosing the problem correctly but giving just enough info to know you need to take the car to a shop and get it fixed as opposed to very detailed step by step procedures given by others with pics, no comparison with those posts

 

I take your point: a pro should have the book. No question. But the fact he joined the discussion for the sole purpose of telling that guy to "look it up" is what people are taking issue with. If he's too "valuable" to teach the rudimentry stuff, then don't post in that particular thread!

In my Lotus group, we have a range of gearheads, from novice, to intermediate, to people on par with Brian. This last group never answers questions like "how do I time my distributor" because not only have we covered it many times, it's a waste of THEIR time. But ask about balancing corners or setting bump steer, well they're all over that.

As an "intermediate" I'm happy to explaing timing to the newbies. They appreciate a personal reply as opposed to a "look it up" condescending approach. I was a newbie once and I appreciated others holding my hand so I could learn. I know Brian is an experienced pro, but that doesn't give him the right to enter a thread for the purpose of being condescending. No one asked him personally for help, so he had no obligation!

Ken

 

"A guy with 7000 posts who has information that will help the community in general is indeed "rude and arrogant" not to share it.


What about someone that knows the answer and doesnt take the time to reply? You have a lot of posts, have you ever skipped over answering? We all have. Does this make us Rude/Arrogant? Hell no. This was a specific question which has been asked and answered here and the answers are in print in the manual. Nothing to do with community help.
What line of work are / were you in? Try converting this situation to your work experiance. I only stick with this because I respect your opinion. We too have butted heads and you gave me a slap (deserved) but you are open minded in your posts and state your knowledge levels honestly and openly.
If you search the original posters history, Brian did help him with obscure data that was spot on. If you look further, the poster has a family member that works on Ferrari's. Maybe he took a job there or maybe he is just out fishing for data for friends / family. I could care less either way.
Brians first reply was perfectly valid and completely acceptable by any standard. He was baited in. The poster made statements that were false and Brian challanged them, nothing wrong with that and this alone could be looked at as one of the many assets Brian brought to this site.
Everyone re-read the first half dozen posts and then tell me who was the one that caused trouble. Read them with an open mind (knowing that there were falsehoods stated as fact) and then answer the question. I do not know the history of the players here but someone had a bone to pick with Brian. He did absolutly nothing wrong what so ever.
"black art even amongst some experienced techs." False as well as false statements in 2 of the 3 of the "techs" points. What is it that Brian OWES another "tech" in this industry? By Brian calling BS to the so called "experianced techs and consultants" making completely false statements and calling them fact, he made this site worth reading.
Cold and harsh at times? You bet. Over the line at times? Maybe. One of the best of the best? No doubt about that and that comes from one of his competition in the industry.

Dave

 

I absolutely agree; we have no obligation to chime in.

As for re-reading the thread, I do see the other side. The issue is more one of style; Brian can rub people the wrong way by not taking the high road sometimes. I know I do too, but I also have admitted to making bad posts and have apologised for them more than once. Even when I think I'm right, if a few people call me out I tend to realize I crossed a line and need to make amends. It's just good manners.

Thing is, I don't take too much personally, and I think everyone should try and do the same. Frankly, if I had a Ferrari I'd put up with people twice as touchy as Brian in exchange for his wealth of knowledge and help. It's not worth losing this resouce over something stupid. But that's up to him. Should we send him a candy gram with an apology?

Ken

 

Hell no, that would really chap his errr.. backside.

Dave

 

Brian owes us nothing. Participation in the technical forum is voluntary and with it only comes the obligation to be accurate. There is no obligation to download every bit of information you have gained through years of training and hard work. His knowledge and experience in these cars is one of his most valued professional assets. Do we expect him to give this away just because he contributes here? That he is willing to share any of his knowledge at all is a blessing. When one considers all of the work, busted knuckles and mistakes that he has had to endure to gain this knowledge, is it really any surprise that he gets a little frustrated at those who don’t even bother to read a manual?

Ernie, I think it is time that you forgive Brian and consider how many Ferrari mechanics, technicians and others, such as the many sponsors here, who have extensive technical knowledge and regularly visit Fchat and say nothing at all. Compared to these silent voices, Brian’s contributions should be commended.

Perhaps Brian may come down a little hard on those pretend to have more knowledge than they actually do. That is his prerogative. Ernie, as you are a man of the Bible, the following quote is for you:

It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise man
Than for one to listen to the song of fools.

Ecclesiastes 7

 

Very interesting thread if you can wade through 80% of the cock and bull. I don’t post for various reasons, but I can tell you for a fact the 355,360 and 430 Flywheels CAN be re-machined. The “taper” really isn’t a taper, it’s a parabola, and yes it’s reproducible if you own the right machines. I have been successfully re-machining them for just over 2 years now with one exception (sorry DH), but even that one was savable.

If you’re worried about the extra heat build up because you now have less material on the flywheel surface, you should consider a Kevlar lined clutch disk which has a higher coefficient of friction.

 

If by DH you meant me, I was machining them while under warranty as FNA wouldnt pay for a new flywheel if it could be machined.
Kevlar clutch. Never have found the need and nothing but headaches for an F1.

Dave

 

Been there done that.

I sent Brian a pm saying that we needed to talk.

The ball is now in his court.

 

That is good to hear.

 

I've replaced plenty of clutches in my time, and it's not a risk or a chance taken. Maybe, my friend, you are a hack and don't do all the things as you should? As long as you replace the necessary parts and make sure to torque the bolts to spec, I don't see why you would have a clutch slipping and overheating.

I'm pretty sure it would be a good thing to do, can't hurt having new parts in a car.

Why on God's green earth would you ever sand and replace a flywheel... Do you think they told you not to machine it so you could sand it and reuse it? Maybe that's said so you should REPLACE it. I would never dream of replacing a clutch with the same flywheel unless it could be machined, and was. It's very hard to stop a new clutch from slipping, yes, for obvious reasons... It needs a smooth surface to catch on, perhaps? Honestly, no matter what drama of "specs or no specs" went down in this thread, I can't believe you're a technician working on Ferrari's. If I were an F430 owner now, as I plan to be in the future, you would be far, far away from my vehicle at all times. Even when working on my Nissan, or perhaps my mom's Mazda (gotta do the work for the moms ;-)), every clutch replacement involves flywheel being replaced for me or machined for her. That's VERY basic automotive procedure.

 

Actually he meant me... Thanks again Craven! My clutch works great!!
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Well, calmer minds have prevailed and I have spoken my mind on the subject. Brian sure as heck doesnt need or want me crusading for him but I will not sit back and watch this type of thing come down and not speak up.
Speaking to the owners of these cars, you have no idea how much extra this type of thing is costing all of you. The reputation of the Marque is taking a real hit these days because there are so many shops/mechanics that tread where they shouldnt be. It is very difficult to justify tens of thousands of dollars of test equipment to service these cars properly but if the entire system was understood, one cant do without it. Simply put, either the shop invests this money for the equipment and knowledge or they dont do the cars. Generic scanners and tools in untrained hands will not do it.

The Ferrari market is difficult because it involves passion, these cars are not looked at as transpotation. Ego's come into play because everyone wants to say they service the marque but few are willing to make the investment to do it to the level the marque requires. The 355 6 spd. was the last model that most everyone with good technical skills could hack their way through. Once the CAN line technology was employed and multiple computers were talking to one another, each requiring VERY specific data within a very small parameter window, everything changed. Take the warped flywheel for example. The computer was programmed for a specific friction material working on a full width of the flywheel and pressure plate. Warp the flywheel and the contact surface is reduced. The computer doesnt monitor this condition and when the throttle is cracked it knows only to release the TOB at a specific rate. It then gets feedback from the main shaft of the transmission and watches the engine RPM and doesnt see the parameters where they should be and backs off the TOB a bit. Now you have the pulsing take off on light throttle that can be felt. Warp the flywheel and the disc has to "bend" to fit the new shape. The computer doesnt know this, it only is programed to move the TOB a slight amount to release the clutch but now it has to go further to accomodate the amount of bend that was introduced into the disc to fit the warpage. Will it all work, sure but not correctly. How can you tell the computer where the TOB is sitting with the new disc, flywheel, plate, etc without the proper equipment? You cant! Throw in a disc with a different coefficient of friction than that of the stock unit and the computer is now totally confused. The owner sells the car and the buyer brings it to a new shop with complaints about the operation of the clutch. The shop, fully equiped with the proper testers is pulling their hair out trying to figure out why the clutch doesnt work as it should. It is a new clutch as the new owner has all the reciepts to show it and they paid extra for the car because of it. After a GREAT deal of effort attempting to make the damn thing work correctly (is it a Motronic issue, a throttle issue or a TCU issue?) the trans. is pulled and proper repairs are done and all works well. The new owner is disappointed with the shop as the bill reflects the extra charges attempting to fix some modified OR improperly repaired clutch. They did after all choose a shop that was properly equiped and trained and these tech's were "unable to make a simple, new clutch work properly", cheaply. Now throw in a shop not willing to accept the challange to make it right and the new owner dislikes how the Ferrari F1 system works, sells the car and buys a Lambo. The only party that is not held accountable for this fiasco is the hack that did it the first time, he got paid and is on to the next car. A bad taste is now in everyone mouth and the Ferrari F1 system and the shop that fixed it properly take the heat because they are "so damn expensive to maintain". The shop lost money because they just couldnt charge for their time trying to figure this out and next time they vow to pull the trans out at the first sign of any clutch engaugement issue.
The snowball is rolling and the hill is big! Choose your mechanic carefully!
Just a little insight into this side of the argument........

Dave