The 355-Exposed? Covered Up? or Overlooked ????

Vern, thank you for the post, very informative but ahead of the game plan.
If everyone can stay focused on the "Valve Guides" we will move on to follow the next item(which is DOWNSTREAM), and that is when we are going to take a look at headers....then everyone can fight it out over the coatings thingy...lol. Remember that the engine is nothing more than an air pump which operates using an fuel/air combustion mechanism...and its concept/design is based on theory which an engineer uses for producing the finished product, which is then evaluated on a dyno to measure its' efficiency(BMEP). This whole pump thing starts when the outside air(gas) is collected for intake and ends when the air(fluid) leaves the exhaust pipe......for us to properly evaluate these issues we must follow the sequence of events..i.e. follow the flow......I say this because what happens upstream is DEFINITELY going to effect everything that is downstream.....and that my friends is what may be happening and the reason for this thread...we may have been treating a downstream symptom but never curing the upstream cause. For those who don't like the word theory...well that is how we got the gasoline engine to begin with, and that same theory led to the developement of the jet engine.....sorry

 

Thanks for the post....great news....I love to get feedback of the earlier cars with mileage...especially when it states NO problems with valve guides.

 

I want to set something straight before we go any further with this thread..............I do not like the word "bad"..as in bad valve guides. When I hear the word "bad", I immediately think of the girl who did that video test drive of the 360CS and said that it was "naughty"...so bad to me means naughty, and I would hate to tell someone their "naughty little valve guides" need replacing...lol
You may be saying to yourself that this is nothing more than symantics....well let's see: When an engineer designs an engine he uses all kinds of complex mathmatical equations to determine how each part will be produced and what materials will be used in each area......when he looks at valve guides(I am not going into detail here) he specifies what the material composition will be so that the manufacturer can produce accordingly.....that being said, we now have a starting point to qualify the words we use: if guides are produced exactly as specified and fail(this assumes that there are no issues anywhere else to contribute or cause} before their alloted time we have a "design flaw"......if guides are produced exactly as specified and they work properly but eventually wear out within the time engineered into them they are simply "worn out within limits"........if guides specified are changed by the manufacturer it is a "manufacturers error"......if guides are produced using contaminated or poor quality material they are "defective"............so don't say they are bad...it tells you nothing other than your out some big$$$. If I spent that kind of money I would want to know which one of these terms applied to my situation...wouldn't you??
Now that we have esrtablished some meaningful terms and since I already know how to differentiate between them, my question to you is, "how do you tell the difference?
Understand this:most owners don't have a clue about anything on their cars other than how to shift,clutch,brake, and steer(and some can't even do these things very well..lol)...others understand more.....but we are all impatient..like Dave Helms said,"they bring their cars in and just want them fixed as quickly as possible so they can cruise and want nothing more than the cheapest cursory details"(paraphrased)........some mechanics(not all) using various test procedures just diagnose that valve guides(not how many...just by cylinders) are in need of replacement and drop off the heads at a machine shop who either confirm this or they just wholesale replace all of them because the mechanic told them to do it......the best not only diagnose but have the machinist report how bad the condition is,which cylinders are involved and even which guides(exh. or int.) and go even further if time and money are not constrained by the owner.
No valve guide issues are great news but are only a piece of the puzzle......I am waiting for some detailed data on the "naughty ones"...lol

 

Vern, although shocked I am not surprised in your response. I would like to say that I have never failed to give honor to whom honor is due....I have always acknowleged you and others for the valuable contributions all of you make to FChat. You and I have exhanged posts on other threads and I have always been thoughtful,considerate, and repectful towards not only you,but the other consultants, and others in general(within limits I might add).
I in no way intended my statement regarding "staying focused" to offend you(it was a simple request,not a command).........I had asked in a polite and nice way in an earlier post for us to stay with the valve guides before proceeding downstream.......I do not think my request was unreasonable. There is both a time a place in this thread to ask questions and respond with answers, and since the goal of this thread was to look at the major issues in a logical/systematic way, discussions pertaining to the headers is "jumping the gun". I have no control over this thread or what people post, but I can control myself, which I did when tchaic(Chris) on this thread asked me about my 355 and the MB's(both of which were waaay off-topic)...instead of posting a reply publicly I pm'd him my response.
Again I am sorry that you were offended...I was not single-ing you out or repremanding anyone,nor you in particular.....your post was very informative and all I asked was to wait for the right time when all of this, will not only be brought up again, but the great info you supplied will have the right kind of impact it deserves. Regards,Bruce

 

Well I read in detail the 2 threads that Tony posted and I want to retract my initial cursory statement wherein I called them "excellent"......if you think these threads are the "end-all" to the valve guide isssue, you are sadly mistaken. While providing some useful data(thanks Rifledriver,DaveHelms,and maybe one or two others for the technical/hands-on observations) it was neither complete or exhaustive..it had no comparison of cylinder to cylinder and same cylinder valve guide wear measurements,had no dyno data(NO I am not talking hp/torque here...there is a hell of alot more data produced by using sensors to monitor just about ever function)...nor did it reach any conclusion, other than lets just add some more confusion and spend alot of money and then we can all be happy campers. Not only was there conflicting data from reported conversations with FNA and FS e.g.beause of valve guide issues in early model 95's, later production 95's received updated valve guides;and then, because F dealers couldn't sell 95's because of the defective valve guide rumors FNA offered to replace all valve guides in 95 year production models at no cost;then it was said FNA did this on a case to case basis on later year production runs...and, well they really didn't upgrade the valve guides until early 98's(starting at a specific build #), and that because Ferrari did switch valve guides it had to be because all previous production runs had bad ones, and on and on..WTF????.....then you have an FChat consultant from Canada saying that ALL prodution years prior to 99 will fail and he wonders why we are still "kicking a dead horse", as though the cause of this issue had been specifically identified...going on he even states that he rebuilt an engine(97??) that had ALL 40 valve guides fail as though this proves his point. I don't know how he got to be a consultant on this site...I have NEVER seen ALL the valve guides fail(we will discuss the difference in the terms "failure" and "catastrophic failure" later along with causes if anyone is interested) at the exact same time due to any of the terms I addressed in my earlier post...if this is really true, that engine was sooo abused and neglected the owner should do hard time in prison because the symptoms of failure,hypothetically speaking let's stretch it to 4 out of the 8 cylinders, were ignored long before the remaining ones failed, and this consultant didn't even state why they failed or the degree of wear(yes you can measure valve guide bore just like a piston cylinder)....man oh man....if he were part of my race team and came to me with all the comments he posted in that thread he would be looking for another job.....and that would apply to someone that I had assigned the duty of researching valve guide issues with my race car, and they returned with those 2 threads as factual proof for me to make a quality decision as to how to remedy the problem. I am sorry,but my 40+ years of experience with cars has been strictly limited to upper tier racing and my approach is obviously drastically different than how one would approach a street car issue......a mechanic that has done nothing but maintain street cars can build a race car, and a mechanic that has done nothing but race cars can build a street car, but neither will build the best when they are out of their normal environment....it's almost like having a brain surgeon doing heart surgery.....you will probably live but you're not going to get the same results that you would of gotten if a qualified heart surgeon had performed the procedure...right????
Again I'm sorry for all the ranting and raving...I guess I'm both crazy and spoiled from past years where I had almost unlimited budgets,nice shops with all the latest greatest high tech toys,great crew members,access to highly specialized engineers,more factual quality data than one could go thru in a lifetime, and plenty of time to waste on only one or two cars....I sometimes forget all the crap,politics,owners,money and time constraints and so forth that you shop owners/mechanics have to deal with day after day with little satisfaction or reward....again, sorry if I have offended anyone, but my frustration, in dealing with this valve guide issue due to so many apparent variables and lack of comprehensive technical data, has overwhelmed me.
My point is, that you have a bridled RACE engine under the hood.....anyone that can get 100hp per liter out of a normally aspirated EPA certified engine has done an excellent job in the design and production....it is super highly tuned and already on the edge....we want it to perform like a race car yet we maintain it like a street car.....being already on the edge all parts/components/systems have to be performing at their best...ignore even the smallest thing and loss of hp will not be your only loss. IMO one of the worst things you can do is add components and parts to boost hp/torque when your "already on the edge engine" is not at its' best, or has issues that have not been identified.....that would be like asking a fully loaded Camel that was coming down with an ailment to carry an extra 100lbs for your 5 day trek thru the desert. I agree, the 355 needs more hp and useable torque.....but not to compete with a 6-7+liter NA HP engine or some 3-4+liter HP turbocharged engine......you would first have to win the "Biggest Looser" award and then be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for setting free 100+NA hp that Ferrari had intentionaly imprisioned within the confines of the 355 engine block(and you aint goin to get that with just a de-cat pipe,shiney tubi muffler,and K&N...Oh,did I forgot the tubi headers??...gee I wonder why? Honestly,I'm scared of the 348 brotherhood(people like plugzit,Grp77racing,NoDoubt,FBB,,and others)...why?. Because these guys,with no full blown race shop are on the leading edge of 348 developement(call it a Franken shade tree Ferrari if you dare, but they are goin to kick your little 355's hiney)...they are not going to be in your rear view mirror, you'll be in their's.
So am I getting off topic? NO....that little valve guide has to put up with alot,and even though its' function is highly critical(for a non moving part) in general, it is even more so in a high revving engine...it gets absolutely no glory, and the only time you ever hear of it is when it fails to perform. If it needs a little help and support in a stock engine, asking it to do more with higher hp or revs without providing additional help and support is just downright cruel.
Again I will state,"the valve guide issue has not been resolved", but sad to say from the lack of posts on this thread it appears to be of little concern.....we can dance around the ring doin the old rope-a-dope all day long, but unlike Ali, we have only a minimal jab and certainly no knock-out punch......throwing hugh sums of money at your opponent is not a knock-out punch...it is called "throwing in the towel".
Well I have to go....maybe I can call FNA and FS in my spare time to see if there is a new song and dance routine for the the 355 valve guide party??? Oops..I keep forgetting the old saying.."out of warranty...out of mind" and that the old grey mare has been turned out to the "parts only" pasture. And believe me when I say this about parts..you just have to take what they give you,like it or not. Hey Daniel at Ricambi,would you order me a Euro fender for my USA version car, and while you're at it, see if they have a new driver side spyder door that is damaged..I need one of those too....lol? or is that tears?..well if it's tears..I definitely know this for sure,it aint tears of joy. Chaa my friend, do you need some company?

 

Thank you Dave for the much needed support and ecouragement. This discussion can be highly technical, requiring lots of thinking. I am trying my best to take what is complex ,to say the least, and put in laymens terms so that all can understand/digest. No matter how much wisdom and knowledge one has, it is of no benefit to others if it cannot be conveyed or imparted. We have atleast reached one(off topic) conclusion, which I also am in complete agreement with,i.e. MY SYNTAX...SUCKS!!!! Sorry to everyone who has tried to read my posts.....a little "Extra Strenght Excedrin" or the "Drug" of your choice ought to help with the headache and blurred vision....lol.

As for your question concerning my background, is this an invatation for me not only to "toot my own horn" but at the same time get me to reveal just how old I am??....lol

OK, a little background without alot of details. My first experience with race cars began with the introduction of the Porsche 917 at which time I was also a consulting engineer on Lockeeds' SR71 Blackbird project. I have studied under Dr. Edward Teller at UC Berkeley and Dr. Werner Von Braun at the MSFC in AL.. I have also been a CE for jet and rocket propulsion sysems for JPL ,Pratt Whitney, and TRW. As for which race series I was involved with? It was primarly IMSA(Group4,5,and GTP) and FIA WEC/WSPC/WSC(GrpC,5,6..they changed the series names what seemed like every year..lol), and on very rare occassions NHRA,Indy, and NASCAR.
Racing marque's within IMSA and FIA? Almost completely Porsche with the exception of Lancia/Ferrari. Race Teams? Martini and Rossi,Rothmans,Brumos,Whittington Brothers,Bayside,Brumos, and others. Engine developement specifications? 2.8-3.3L boxer 6-V8,2-4valve,both air-cooled and fluid cooled,single and twin turbocharged,mechanical FI and proprietary EMS. Race car driver affiliations? Al Holbert,Hurley Haywood,Peter Gregg,Bob Aiken,Rolf Stommelen,Klaus Ludwig,Stefan Bellof, and so on.

Well Brucey, so you you think you know it all? You think you're some big hot shot walking around with the big head as though everyone else doesn't know sh*t? ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, just about everyting I know I learned from someone else. I respect other peoples opinions and viewpoints and am always in the process of assimilating the good input and discarding the rest. I just want to know what makes things tic, and what makes them break. Why? So they can be improved in both performance and reliability.

Funny thing is I have never worked(hands on, i.e. never turning a wrench thingy) on a street car. Took my own street cars to a shop just like everyone else...paid the bill and drove off. Yes I gave them some input and would ask some tough questions when I picked the car up.....again, just like everone else. So, if you want to know about your window regulator or door lock module I'm not the person to ask...I don't even know which car wax to use....lol. I made a couple of pathetic attempts before to answer some street car problems, only to have Rifledriver(Brian) and others shoot me down....pun intended. After that I refrain from showing my ignorance when it comes to those kind of problems. But within this thread I started, I'm willing to contribute all I can(even if it is ignorance), along with what I hope is, everyone else's comments,opinions,observations, and technical data.

Reported major issues of 355 being scrutinized: valve guides,headers,catalytic converters, and O2 sensors.

Our goal? To determine whether or not major issues are fact or fiction. If factual, to accurately identify cause/effect for each major issue with a corresponding solution that will enhance performance and reliability.

Methodology employed? Highly modified Logic Tree(don't throw in the towel just because of this term....it is simple tool that uses deductive logic to guide your thinking process so as to draw the correct conclusion).

OK, now that we have all that crap said to satisfy the young upstarts working on their doctorate degrees.....let's get started.

First things first. Since I killed this thread with psychotic babbling and excessive control...there are now ABSOLUTELY NO RULES.....you can start where-ever you want i.e headers, O2 sensors....you can talk about anything you want just please try and stay on-topic.....and you can question or answer anything. You will get no interferance from me AT ALL.

Please,please,please participate whether you are sure are unsure about your input....just post and we can cleanup the mess as we go. I can in no way resolve these issues by myself.....your participation is crucial...who knows, your input could be the key that unlocks the mystery....

Remember one thing....this exercise is for the benefit of, not just you in particular, but ALL 355 owners(both present and future).

Regards, Bruce


P.S. Vern,you know I think highly of you so, PLEASE come back....you are needed my friend.

 

Thank you very much Richard. I didn't realize all of this until I went back and tried to read my own post.....gave myself a headache..lol.
I would also like to thank you for reposting with paragraphs.
Sometimes my mind gets to going so fast that I forget all that grammar stuff I was taught in the 3rd grade...lol

 

Kevin, thanks for making me aware of this article. Could you please post a link so that I may review?
Please,when you make such statements as "no need to reinvent the wheel", keep this in mind:

The wheel is believed to have been invented 8000BC and the oldest wheel discovered dates back to approx. 3500BC. The round concept employed for transportation use has gone thru atleast 8 and possibly as many as 12 stages(some minor, others major) of development. What started as a round wooden log is now a rubber shod LW metal or CF composite frame/disc. Hopefully you can see the obvious..i.e. the wheel which started as a wooden log has been drastically "reinvented" so as to arrive at our current design. If it hadn't been "reinvented" you would be asking what size's does that maple log come in for my 348/355 Ferrari? You may have even gone for the LW pine log for racing applications.....lol

 

Thanks Kevin, but this is one of the two threads Tonyh posted(#8) that I reviewed and referenced in my post(#34 & #38-revised by Richard).

Must admit that I was a little offended with your "don't reinvent the wheel" comment, but even more so now knowing that you used the thread by Flatoutracing as a foundation.

Kevin, this thread started at post #1......please read all posts and any links contained therein before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. It is imperative, if you either plan to repond in a contributive way or get any useful information about the topics discussed in this thread, that you stay current.

Regards,Bruce

 

I am in agreement with both DaveHelms(post#41) and NoDoubt(post#39) in reference to the thread by FlatOutRacing.

Even though it was interesting reading material,it was flawed. Some flaws were quite obvious and others were not, but the end result is the same, i.e. anything that is flawed whether exposed or concealed impairs sound judgement and produces a conclusion which is erroneous.