Looks legit. Nice car, and a good buy, I guess!...
Looks legit. Nice car, and a good buy, I guess! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-Dino-1973-Ferrari-Dino-246-GTS-flares-and-chairs-25k-miles_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6212QQihZ002QQitemZ120133218789QQrdZ1QQtcZphoto
It had 50,000 miles on it in 1981, now it has 25,000 miles on it. I guess the guy who owned it for the last twenty years only drove backwards. that's why so many of these low mileage claims smell bad. The buyer thinks he's getting a low miles car, it's probably 125,000 miles, or a replacement speedo, either way, this ain't no 25K mile car. DM
Isn't that criminal fraud in most states? In NY you have to sign an odometer statement. I would think a dealer would do his due diligence, anyhow! Actually, it's a FELONY: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:lcKsXAMSrx0J:www.usdoj.gov/civil/ocl/monograph/odom.htm+odometer+mileage+statement+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
Despite the fact it took me about ten seconds to find that info, the seller can claim he knew no better, or was told by the prior owner, etc, etc. Always (on old cars) a way around that. As a buyer, I'd yap, but probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on. DM
With this much money involved? Maybe only a dealer would have a hard time arguing. Of course, the seller might be a dealer, too. If you or I could look on the Dino Register and get that info (which of course may not be accurate) in 10 seconds, so could the seller. I would guess that the seller did a fair amount of research on the car at some point, stuff that would show up in phone and internet records in a lawsuit. In any event, if the mileage is, in fact, a lie, I really wouldn't want to be the seller. Wonder what the case law is? After all, the seller has made an affirmative statement, in writing, of the mileage. Need a lawyer to comment! Better yet, a judge!!
Any car, ten years or older, is exempt for mileage statements. On the back of the title, on the mileage space, you write exempt. The title will also reflect exempt miles. I'm not defending this guy, just telling the facts.
Doesn't protect from making knowingly false statements, and, there's no disclaimer in his ad on ebay staing that the mileage "reads 25,000 but may not be accurate." He's claiming it is a 25K car for miles. What the title says, or the potential exemption, isn't relevant under these circumstances. If I'm the buyer, I'm looking for a discount on the price for sure. Of course if I'm a dealer, I may just continue the charade and pass it to the next unwitting owner who will brag about his very low miles car. DM
The seller is a known dealer who has been in the business for years. I don't truely believe he would list the car as something it isn't. Sure, he could have checked the sources, but most likely he bought the car from a known customer and I doubt he would spend his time screwing around on teh computer trying to research the history. Having said that, i questioned the legitimacy of the mileage of low miles cars long ago. unless you have tracked the history of the car and the mileage seems to make logical sense, i think all cars have to be questioned. When it comes down to it, i think condition is a better indicator of the car than the mileage, regardless how high they may be.
Stephen Barney is the seller and I've had great deals over the past years with him. He's also very respected in the industry, so I doubt there is anything nefarious on his end. He told me last week this was his "barn find".
I almost bought the car but he has no records on the car. The car is a yellow car to start. Paying that kind of money and not knowing the history of the car is a risk i was not willing to take. He had the car 3 weeks and then flipped it. Vince
It seems to me cars like Ferraris (even l'il Dinos) ahould not be that hard to trace around if you have some paperwork. Who buys a car like this and tosses everything when they sell it? My car had the original buyer's registration, receipt and Warranty Card, and the second owner's info on the title dox. I (gasp!) looked their phone numbers up and called them. Amazing how happy most are to talk about their lost love. In fact, one, a MAJOR neurosurgeon, took my call in a couple of seconds, while if I'd needed spinal surgery I'm sure it would have been days!!! I would say that an absence of info just has to be a bad fact pattern. These cars have been selling for a fair packet for many years, and people who pay $50-200,000 for a car don't just toss the paperwork! Hell, I still have the window sticker for my '95 XJS! The perfect documentation and owner references convinced me to pay a bit more for my car. At least that way I know nobody messed around with it, and any problems will be a combination of old age and Italian humor.
i don't think you realise how rare these items are. yes, you have them with your car, but many don't. and trust me, there are dead ends that approach very fast when it comes to tracking the info
On the other hand, there are lots of people who perform the work themselves and although it results in the car being in great condition there might not be many shop receipts. Several systems on these cars are not especially complex and can be serviced by their owners. We've seen several examples of members here doing their own work.
Gentlemen, Lets put the torches and pitchforks away! I bought this car from an authorized Ferrari dealer I have been dealing with for many many years. The car appears to be a 20k mile car and so I didnt have any reason to question it. I have been in contact with the dealer and he too is surprised by this and we are looking into it further. I have contacted the buyer and we have agreed to hold off on the sale until we can get this resolved. I am currently on a mission to find out any info on this Dino and if you have some suggestions I am open to them... We are currently hunting for records to verify the mileage and possibly find when it was changed, if indeed it has been. Let me make this perfectly clear. I in no way have been nor will ever falsely document or represent a car that isnt what I say it is. I have been in this business too long and worked too hard to throw it away over one car. It is not uncommon at all for people to toss records and items from these cars or get lost during moves or kept for mementos when the car is sold. Keep in mind that in the 1960-1970 Ferraris where just another European car to most Americans and they didnt become the collector cars they are till the 80s. Thus there are lots of records and such missing because when you went for a service, as long as the car worked afterwards, you didnt care about the paper. It is a full time job trying to sort through al the mess in the world of exotic cars, and especially with vintage cars. That is what it is important for me to have a good relationship with others in the business that I know and trust. In this instance it seems that possibly my dealer and myself have been mislead. I still cant say that for sure because all I have seen to indicate otherwise is one listing in the Dino registry .that may or may not to correct? I have yet to be able to find this info? I googled Dino registry and only found the GT4 registry.
Steve is spot on here. I recently spoke with a Flea Market vendor of Service Manuals and scale models, like the manufacturers produced to promote new models. All his trailer had was Chiltons and GM type Service Manuals, but dig this. He stated to me he had three CRATES of Euro Manuals 'at the warehouse" he had purchased from an East Coast used car dealer, whose standard practice as the cars were washed in Make Ready was to clean the glove box and trunk, tossing all tool kits and manuals aside... Kind of boggles the mind, what might be in those crates.......
Steve. Glad to see this. To contact Matthias at the dino register try this. matthes.urban AT t-online.de Obviously replace the AT with an @ www.dinoregister.com. search by the serial number, or by a prior owner's name. The folks at Ferrari Market Letter may be able to help also. They have an immense database of Ferrari information. Gerald or Carol Roush. www.ferrarimarketletter.com Dave M.
We have gathered more records on the car, but I am needing to find the owner of the car when it was in California. That seems to be when the car goes cold. Anyone that can offer up any clues I would greatly appreciate it Cheers' Steve
So, what IS THE OUTCOME after 2 weeks? Did a prior owner drive the car 25K miles backwards, as posted above? If I were Steve, I'd be PO'd at the dealer - so what if it was an official Ferrari dealer. Hey, and what is so tough about checking the Dino Register for someone in the business? I can see an outsider who doesn't know all the secret handshakes not knowing about the Dino Register, but for someone in the business . . . I just don't get it.
