McLaren suspends key technical employee in ferrari probe

If a crime has been commited, and it might have, then the two people involved should be held accountable. How could anyone, including the FIA, conclude that the information was even used? I doubt they'll even be a penalty, McLaren had to fire thier chief designer. Penalty enough.

 

The only "crime" I see here is an internal one for Ferrari. It has nothing to do with the FIA, Mclaren or anyone else. Its an issue for Ferrari's Human Resources dept.
Unless Ferrari can prove that Mclaren activly sought,solicited and paid for information from a senior Ferrari employee, which i doubt, then this really is a business as normal (in F1), and a none issue. It will all be forgoten by Sunday and Nigel will go and work for Ross Brawn at Honda, and the cheating will start again.

 

The fact that Coughlan was suspended by McLaren is no big deal. . no different than a cop involved in a shooting who receives a requisite number of days off the job. You guys have already crucified the entire McLaren team and don't even know the truth of the accusations against ONE person who happens to work for McLaren. Who's to say that information found at his residence was ever used by McLaren and not perhaps sold to another team? Did you ever stop to think that if said info was in fact utilizied by McLaren that no one else might have even had it clue it was Ferrari information . . .the Chief Designer presents design improvements as "his own work." Ya'll have your head in the sand if you don't think that other teams "scout" out their opposition for strengths and weaknesses, new ideas, etc. it's the nature of competitive sports. So Ferrari has instigated legal proceedings against Stepney and Coughlan but they will have to prove any wrong doing on the part of Coughland other than he had documents in his possession.

I think it has been summed up quite well by Autosport in a recent report:
"Inevitably, too, some would also be very happy for the fans to draw the conclusion that McLaren's turnaround in form after Spain was in some way related to the information that was passed on, although clearly there is no evidence that this is the case. Indeed, it remains unknown if the alleged information was actually used by Coughlan in an attempt to benefit McLaren, or if indeed it was of any value to a team running a completely different car."

Innocent until proven guilty.

Carol

 

+1, i've been trying to say this all along. Everyone is already excluding and penalising without knowing what the heck is going on.

 

luis, how much is the bridge ?

how about when we had that Russian dude who could make the launch control software disappear after the race (allegedly), or when Renault were caught with their launch control hooked up to the starting lights, or when McClunken had DC give way to MH in Austraila, or when the fuel tanks in the Hondas (?) were deemed illegal, or the bargeboard issue, or the moving ballast, or the moving floor ........

cheating is one thing, industrial espionage is a totally DIFFERENT thing and in the world of F1 where there is huge money in sponsorships it won't look good for a sponsor to be associated with what appears to be an unethical team, this is NOT cheating , this is espionage

now , how long is this bridge we're negotiating about ?

 

hold it , so suspending your HEAD DESIGNER is no big deal ??!!

I know you love F1 but seriously this is a BIG deal Carol, imagine if Rory Byne had been suspened on criminal charges of espionage !!

hmmm let's see, Stepney sacked by Ferrari, Coughlan sacked by McClunken, papers found at Coughlan's place ....... jail time coming up

 

Luis, how very true.

This thread is kin to a shark feeding-frenzy. . . throw a little chub in the water and instant attack.

Carol

 

John, it runs from Brooklyn to Manhattan. Looks real nice at night. It stretches 5,989 feet......Special independance day price and EZ finance, no money down.....

So dressing up a Ferrari employee and having him take pictures of the McLaren is ethical? Having things banned when you can't get them or figure out how they work is ethical too? Ferrari is just as bad as everyone else in this regard. Ferrari hiring basically all the old Benneton team including MS was ethical? Do you think some of the Benneton secrets didn't end up on the Ferrari? As relatively small as the F1 community is, this sort of thing is pretty much inevitable.

 

A chief designer is no different than anyone else of position if a company feels it in their best interest (or perhaps company policy) to temporarily remove that person due to work-related legal implications. Sure there's a void in that person's absence but the world doesn't end because that one person is not in the picture. . . there's certainly a "back-up" person.

I think the F1 coverage this weekend and the pre-show with Peter Windsor should be interesting this. (oop's I just remembered it's coverage is FOX). It would seem to make sense for the FIA to issue a statement regarding the current state of affairs to avoid rumors, erronous speculation . . but that might be too sensible.

Carol

 

brilliant !! will AMEX be ok

I think you are overlooking somethings to support your argument, firstly Ferrari BOUGHT the Benneton team , minus Flavio, they didn't use industrial espionage to get the secrets.

Ferrari have always been at the forefront of trickery and oneupmanship and after 21 years in the doldrums they were willing to do anything to get back to number one.

First they took the step of having Luca back in the side organising which he seems to do brilliantly.

Then Luca hired JT, pivotal step in my book as JT is quite a great team man, read somewhere he would ride with the mechanics in cattle class instead of up the pointy end.

Then they got rid of Barnard, for all his brilliance the divided camps in Italy and the UK was one of the most divisive actions Ferrari ever took (the desperation factor again) and installed Rory Byrne, great designer as has been proved

Then they bought the Benneton team, paid for them , didn't steal secrets, they bought them ... if you move onto another company do you not try to use the experiences you learnt at our new company ?

Michael was the icing on the cake and a huge driving force but don't tell me RB or JT or LdM weren't heavy guiding forces as well

So when the head designer is dismissed mid-season when all the work is going into next years car as well that this isn't a big deal.

I agree Ferrari can be just as bad as everyone else but I cannot recall ever seeing reports that Ferrari have stolen intellectual property from someone else they didn't pay them for.

Yes they play hard and rough decisions are given but this is F1 where no quarter is given or taken but stealing from Ferrari to gain an advantage (Toyota first and now McLaren )

now this bridge , will it fit on an 18 wheeler ?

 

Hiring highly skilled people away from an opposing outfit is nothing new. Ferrari wasn't the first to do so and they also weren't the last. When you are the top team, you can also expect others to come poaching at the end of the season, and why not? If you are going to learn and improve, you look toward to the people ahead of you, not behind.

We are talking about two entirely different thing here. One completely legal and the other, illegal. You can make all of the excuses you want, but it does not change the facts that has been released so far: 1) Mr. Stepney suspended by Ferrari. 2) Mr. Coughlan suspended by McLaren with papers found at Coughlan's place. Again, regardless how useful the information is or what they are about, if they are applicable or not, these papers are found in possession of a highly ranked McLaren official. That along is wrong no matter how you slice it. A honest person will simply notify the authorities and the other team of the event and then turn the docuements over, period. See this incident individually, don't cloud the issue by saying "Ferrari did this....., if Ferrari had....". Yes, it is true that no one has yet to be found quilty at this time, but anyone here has to admitt that it does not look good for Stepney/Coughlan/McLaren at this time.

As I stated before, I wish this is not true as this whole thing is not only bad for Ferrari and McLaren, but for the entire F1 community. While I love F1 and love Ferrari even more, I do not want to see McLaren being baned or worse in the future because of this.

 

You won't have to wait until race day. I am sure this will be talked about by the Speed crew at the beginning of the practice session telecast.

 

I think the FIA (Bernie) will be loving all this and once the shark-infested British media get a hold of it in ernest the interest factor in F1 will soar.

I can only see the FIA fuelling the fire as it draws attention to the sport by avoiding the issue thereby increasing speculation

either way I think (hope) we all want Ferrari to win again 1-2, we're in dire straights with points and another Kimi win is great for the WCC but bad for the WDC

and remember Ron Dennis is Lucifer

 

+1 and well stated.

 

>I can only hope that none of this is true as McLaren does not deserve to go down in flame because of one man's selfish mistake. >It is entirely possible that RD/McLaren has absolutely no knowledge of this and simply believes that their Chief Designer just >happens to be both lucky and super bright. But either way, their season and perhaps, even their future participation in F1 has to >come under fire because of all this.

Indeed.

The culpable person is an (prominent) employee and his actions
have benefitted his employer (at least by hurting its competitor),
whether he operated alone or not.




>The McLaren personal definitely did not sign any documents to say they
would not RECEIVE any sensitive information


They do not have to. If someone stole something and
gifted it to his clueless friend, the latter would not
be entitled to it just because he didn't know the source.



>BMW looks like they made quite a gain as well, McLaren isn't the only
one. >Williams also looks better that last year. It's not that unusual for a team to > a big gain year to year. McLaren has done it before, so has Ferrari and >even Renault. I think most of this story is hogwash, the two cars are too >different for any information to be useful to one another.

The principal matter is that the info was obtained
through industrial espionage.

Systems, cars, armies, etc share differences and similarities.
Ferrari and its drivers + McLaren and its drivers aren't racing
against an abstract standard. They are racing against each other.

Thus, just knowing the opponent is _an_ advantage. One could
argue that the incentive for espionage correlates positively
with the number of differences.

A neighbor strolling through another's house without permission,
is at minimum culpable of criminal trespass.

That neighbor will be disciplined because if everyone strolled
through everyone's house without permission _and_ was caught,
the neighborhood, as such, would cease to exist.

If McLaren didn't find the situation flammable,
they would have stood by their employee.

 

+1
The insane feeding frenzy needs to stop. No good can come of it.

 

If McLaren didn't wait for a judicial verdict, surely,
others can be forgiven for employing common sense,
based on published info.

Although public/informal opinion is not a court verdict
it is as, if not more, dangerous than.

 

Just for the record MS did not lose the points or race finnishes, just was disqualified for the 97.

 

My take on this is that all teams cheat. The trick is to not get caught. The fastest car is usually the one with most well-hidden cheats. We know that Stepney has not been happy at Ferrari. We can safely assume that Ferrari had a few things on their car that shouldn't really be there (as do all other teams). Therefore, isn't it possible that the info Stepney gave to McLaren, whilst being of no use to make the McLaren's faster, would be useful if McLaren decide to lodge a protest against Ferrari?

+1
Monza 1999, I saw Ron leaving a motorhome. I went up to him and said "Ron, you are the devil". He seemed quite pleased!

 

Yes, but this is like buying stolen articles: you´re guilty if you knew those articles were stolen when you bought them. So maybe the McLaren guy is in trouble too.

 

This all makes sense, so it makes you wonder what the impact could be. I think it could be more a matter of exploiting weak points in the Ferrari armor. It now makes me wonder how Macca new about the flexi-floorboards on the new chassis...

I think the FIA should make this a top priority and not wait for the regular courts to intercede, as it could materially affect the championship this season. They need to answer the questions: What did they know and when did they know it? If Macca came into possesion of any material information during the course of this season, they need to take it in the tail-pipe.

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60467

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6264904.stm

 

excerpts have been quite a few posts back during last night's discussion as has the following post on here identifying the McLaren person - you guys "tuned in late" on this one!

Carol

 

So in other words you're saying that these two men at this very high level at these two companies are too damn stupid to know whether this info was valuable or not and risked what they did? Oh come on , give me a break!!!