Replacement for R-12 coolant (not R-134a) ?

"Follow the money" is right! DuPont was instrumental in all of the flak about R-12, even though the facts don't add up. Freon is heavier than air and goes straight down, so how is it an atmospheric problem? It breaks down in the natural environment, so it doesn't last that long either. DuPont wanted their new product R-134 to be a big winner, since their R-12 patents were expiring.

A number of countries in Europe use Propane (R-290) in automobiles to replace Freon, even though DuPont has lobbied against it in the US and it's not allowed here. Propane is OK out of doors, where there is plenty of ventilation to take care of any leakage. It carries about 25% more heat away than R-12. A friend of mine has charged all his trucks and cars with Propane and can blow snow out of the vents on a moist day, so I know it works really well. It's also compatible with the R-12 oils and seals. I've been tempted to try it, but my car has ended up in the shop every spring and I've had the shop take care of it instead. Maybe I'll try it on my old Mustang.

 

I had a friend try Freeze-12 in his 1991 Integra. Multiple tries only resulted in mild cooling which was inadequate for heat endured in the San Gabriel Valley (near Los Angeles.) He finally gave up and had the car retrofitted to R134a which worked better than Freeze 12 (to my amazement.)

For the Ferrari, I have been told to just go with R12. The system was designed around R12 and was good to marginal with the R12.

Bob

 

Right-o, I'm not too impressed with the prospect of the Freeze12, but the product that was mentioned in the first post of this thread, Enviro-safe, looks like a real winner! They claim it's more efficient than R12. Perhaps this all falls into place with the propane as they say this stuff is a hydrocarbon coolant, too. I recall printing out LONG ago when R12 was being phased out that a 79/21 mix of propane and butane was a match for R12. Back in the old days of rec.autos.tech and gopher holes!

 

So... I take it you got past the visions of Hindenburg

 

There are several HFC "drop in" replacements for R-12, (R-414b "hotshot" being the best) but they are all blends of several types of refrigerants. Some even contain flamables like propane !! The problem is they work well initially, and are cheap to use, but in a tiny leak situation (probable in an old system) one component gas boils off before the others. You then cannot just add more, a complete evacuation and recharge is needed to get good performance to return. Bottom line: put R-12 in an existing system recharge, for a system in need of new parts and oil replacment, just do the 134 conversion, or bite the bullet and stay with the $$$ R-12, it's cool......

My .02

 

What if you have a car that is full of freeze 12? Can you pull it out and simply replace it with R12 if you have it and want to, even though it is 80% 134, without a problem?

 

First off, from the stats of most large aircraft collisions, the Hindenburg wasnt so awful of an accident, and in fact many walked away. The journalist covering the scene, with his little girl crying voice, made it out to be far far worse. Most of those who died were the result of jumping to thier death, not burning, and most of the rest simply walked away. It didnt "explode" and blow itself instantly to bits, it burned rather slowly and gave virtually everyone who kept their wits about them a safe chance of escape. When a modern airliner goes down today, your prospects are far worse than any airship ever was. Secondly, the airship was filled with hydrogen, not propane. But in any event, both are in gaseous form.

I have thought about this a lot, and spent hours researching it online, as well as at libraries. Before the 1960's, most large commercial buildings world wide used propane as a refrigerant in the central air conditioning system. With a big push by Dupont and an initial lowering or the price of Freon, they convinced the "industry" to switch to R-12/R-22. Propane was from thereafter considered "dangerous", though no major fires or accidents were ever claimed from its use or cause. And today, everyone has been brought up and taught how dangerous "everything" is.....Most today cant live without a cell phone or onstar, and traveling to a remote area without coverage is taboo.

Today we drive cars with explosives in the steering wheel and give it no concern. All cars built since the late 80's have fuel injection systems, with a "minimum" of 36 psi operating pressure. With the Ferrari's however, up through the 328, all FI cars have CIS fuel injection. The system has an accumulator that continuously holds about one liter capacity of fuel, under an operating system pressure close to 100 psi at all times, running or not. All of your cars with CIS injection, are sitting out in your garages right this moment, waiting to spring a leak and push out over a liter of gasoline under high pressure. These cars can sit for many months, and still not have dropped any pressure. And the CIS fuel pump is capable of pumping over 2 gallons per minute while maintaining line pressure, and can exceed 200 psi. Its a very robust pump! Count to three, your car could deliver half a quart of high pressure fuel in that time, sprayed all over your hot engine. Could you shut it off that quick?

I highley doubt 10 or 15 oz of propane in an AC system is going to ever "explode", and probably would never even combust. The fuel mixtures to maintain combustion are very narrow, and at best it would "flash", and be out instantly. Now if we were going to worry about it being inside the car with us, again, evaporator failures are virtually never heard of, and the whole system within the car is on the low pressure side. Its the high pressure side, outside of the passenger compartment, where we have most failures (leaks), and with propane the overall pressures are LOWER than with R12, so the system does not work as hard. Even in major accidents, freon leaks are slow. Seldom is there ever a major leak from a line exploding from pressure, and if so, its the line near the compressor, hot and under the highest pressure. IMO, the fuel system is far more dangerous, and much more likely to burn the car to the ground than 10 or 15 oz of propane.

So far I have tried propane in a Ford pickup, and a Saab 900, both of which had marginal AC systems. If it wasnt for all the gloom and doom hype of massive full city block explosions from 10 oz of propane, I would have left it in them. They were absolutely the coldest AC systems I have ever seen. And yes, ive seen vapor and ice crystals come from the vents. Even on near 100 degree days. OTOH, 134 systems are a joke, and are virtualy useless once outside temps reach near 100 degrees.

I will stick with the status quo for now, and be all legal schmegal, but if I ever wanted a good cold AC system and R-12 is no longer available, I would reconsider.

 

at one california shop I went to, if you put in something besides r-12, they won't hook your system up to their equipment. Contamination of their recyclable product was their concern.

your kinda stuck either not telling them or opening the system yourself to dump the stuff.

could be just one lunatic shop owner, so ymmv.

 

The AC techs have been so brainwashed by the industry, mainly to keep you from doing thier job, that "anything" you do is just plain wrong in thier opinion. Propane gas, from a purely environmental or ecological perspective, is the MOST GREEN refrigerant you could use. Its not a green house gas, and even though its doubtful R-12 really does anything to the ozone, propane surely does NOT. So you could vent it to atmosphere anytime you needed to, without fear of harming the planet.

From all I understand, whatever they pull out of vehicals is contained in a seperate cylinder (reclaimer), and recycled when full. None of it is ever put back into a vehical. Every recycling center we have here will take anything for free except an amonia refrigerator, so how your contaminated refrigerant is going to screw them up is beyond me.

But anyway, there are a few different refrigerants or mixes that will work better in the system than 134A. Almost anything works better. Its interesting that as time has moved along, google seaches regarding propane or butane refrigerant are turning much more friendly. Idaho has approved it as a replacement, europe is building refrigerators using it, and people are discussing it intelligently and realising the dangers proposed by the "industry" are mostly scare tactics propagated to protect themselves. Its also interesting to note that a propane refrigerated refrigerator, is 9-15% more energy efficient. Maybe going green isnt all bad. Did you know that as far back as the 1920's the power companies subsidised companies like GE and others to develop compressor refrigerators, and were silently lobbying to ban absorbtion type home refrigerators?

 

Having experienced the chilling effects of propane, I'm seriously considering it for the mondial. I need to do something when the engine goes back in. Only problem with propane is that the AC will probably freeze up all the time

 

I replaced from original and redid all the inner pieces to 'fix' what was a cheaper coolant. But took so long to get cold or even work properly, I put it back to original again..

BUT, I'm a near stickler for original in mfgr specs, except valve guides, filters, mounts and the like expendables....

I found it didn't work better.

 

Hey Artvonne, where did you read that Idaho has approved Propane/Butane replacement refrigerants? I live in Idaho! Go Green!

That means I could swap my vehicles over and not worry at all about the legal mumbo-jumbo. It's so dry here most of the time I won't have the snow problem I would have if I lived in Florida with high humidity either.

And about the Hindenburg guys, "Myth Busters" did a great piece on the disaster. It turned out that the laquer-based coating on the cloth envelope was the main culprit, not the Hydrogen. The Hydrogen didn't help, but it didn't flash ignite either like the laquer did.

 

So...what about this?

 

Conditionally yes, If you followed the R134a conversion procedure & replaced the oil with POE oil before charging with Freeze12, then just remove the Freeze12 & pull a full vacuum on the sytem for at least half an hour, (longer is better) to ensure all remnants are boiled out. Then recharge with R134a.

If a full R134a conversion procedure wasn't performed, then it must be done to ensure adequate compressor lubrication.

However, to get a shop to do the procedure you'd have to find one that's setup to remove/recycle Freeze12 to avoid the equipment contamination issue.

Umm, the approval is the federal EPA, the states usually just go along. The EPA definitely does NOT approve hydrocarbon blends as R12 replacement for automotive applications. See:

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

This EPA site lists the approved alternative refrigerants & their composition down towards the bottom:

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/chiller.html

 

I found it doing a search on google of propane refrigerant. Search R290, R600, or R600a HC refrigerants. Just a few months ago the same search netted mostly sites warning of all the dangers of fireballs and huge explosions. Today its like a 180 degree turn around.

I wouldnt be surprised if HC refrigerants take over the entire A/C industry within just a few years. Your next refrigerator or freezer could likely be filled with it. We should have been using this stuff 40 years ago!

here is a link to the Idaho Observer:
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20020406.htm

 

R12 is still available, it just cost a little more...

 

Thanks Art. It looks like the Idaho company OZ Technology has disappeared, but another company has the same refrigerant formula, called DuraCool, which is available. From what I read, it sounds like DuPont and the EPA have teamed up to kill any opposition the R-134a. I think I'll go ahead and do whatever I feel like and just not tell any regulatory agencies. My Mustang needs a recharge. The Mondial can wait until the current recharge runs out.

 

It looks like that 30# cylinder of R-12 that I bought at Sams Club years ago for $195 was quite a deal. I still haven't had to break the seal for the 308 since I still have no trouble having the A/C refilled.

 

I believe so, Tommy. You just have to get it ALL out or if they mix, an organic acid forms from the combining of amounts of R12 and R134a and then attacks your compressor parts and causes, albeit eventually, Black Death, as the ac experts call it. But I do not really know to what an extent it really happens, or is it a scare theory. There are plenty of articles on line if you want to read up on compressor "black death".

 

Whaaaaaat? Sam's club?? Man, Can I go there too? Just a year ago?

 

Whaaaaaat? Sam's club?? Man, Can I go there too? Just a year ago?

oops....oh well, free post...catchin up to Big Tex

 

That's not good news at all.

I haven't read a can of Freeze 12 (yet) but since 12 oil HAS to be removed completely before moving to 134 - why is it fine to just put in Freeze 12 (80% 134) in a system that has always been 12? Isn't that simply begging for the eventual "black death"

Can an expert chime in on this please?

 

The "conversion kit" I used on my MB from 12->134a had some type of oil that didn't require removal of the old oil, just cost you some system volume. So I don't think draining of the old oil is necessarily required, but certainly best so you don't have an over-oiled system.