Help Is this 308 noise something bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfbEFJoTM0

Thanks for listening. This noise is only heard during warmup, seems to be coming from timing gear area. I've heard that 308s have noisy oil pumps when cold, is that it? I've had other aluminum engined cars that I think made similar noises. Should I worry or just drive it?
thanks
Bill

 

That doesn't sound too good to me, my 1980 308 doesn't make that noise. I'm sure some with my experience will chime in soon.

 

Not normal. I would start by process of elimination. 1st remove AC belt and see if noise is still there. Then remove WP belt and check for noise. If it is still there then I would remove rear timing belt cover and see what you find. Check for oil leak on lower timing pulley. If you still can't find it then you'll need to remove front timing cover (PIA) to see if the problem is there. My 2 cents

 

My 2v made a "click, click, click" on warm up, not really as fast as yours. turned out to be the air conditioner compressor clutch...

 

Ticking like that doesn't sound right! I agree with the comment to look for oil leaks around the cam-belt drive pulleys. That would be a sign that the roller bearings on the pulley shafts are shot, which is quite common especially after fitting new belts at a high tension. Otherwise there doesn't seem to much down there to make that noise. If something (or several things, bits of debris?) were trapped in the gears they might tick.. Haven't heard of noisy oil pumps.


Great idea to use youtube by the way. Opens up all sorts of possibilities.

good luck
Richard

 

Check the oil level before you get too excited. My 308 sounds like there are pebbles rattling around on the rt side of the engine when the level gets low, especially when cold. Hope it's nothing serious, m

 

I agree with what everyone has said- it's not right. Firstly- I would use a stethescope to pinpoint the location. Use it on the waterpump, both belt covers, oil pump housing, damper bolt, etc. Be careful with the stethescope while running obviously. If you don't have one- just go to Sears or NAPA and get one- less that $20 and much more accurate/telling than other methods.

After that, start removing acc. belts (alt, ac- as stated earlier in this post) to see it it changes. Only run the car for a very short time without either of these belts.

Has this noise happened suddenly, or just gotten louder over time? Any work been done on the car recently?

After I replaced my timing drive bearings, I ended up with a piece of steel stuck to an internal cam drive gear and it made a noise VERY similar to that, but not as loud. It also diminished as the car warmed up. I also had a wad of glue in and around the balance holes in the damper face, and that caused the damper to be out of balance and as I scraped the glue off, the noise dissapeared forever.

Is it faster than a single revolition of the crankshaft? I can't tell from the video (awesome idea by the way!). I seems to be faster- but I could be wrong.

 

My '81 GTSi made the same noise.
Since i've removed the AC compressor the noise is gone.
(when the oil is low and i turn trough a long right hander it also ticks, but that is a different sound)
I friend of mine has a '83 QV that makes the same ticking noise when cold.
Check it, i'll bet you its the AC compressor.

 

Thanks for all the reads/replies so far. I would say the noise started gradually & I haven't done any work to belts or accessories in last 5k miles(I did replace belts & tensioners 2 years 5k miles ago). I think the noise is faster than the cam drive gear so its probably at crank speed. With a hose and a stethescope its loudest at the rear drive gear. No leaks in the area & both gears seem tight, (no side to side slop). I'll slip the accessory belts off & listen tho I think its a looooooooooong shot. Where's the person who was suppose to say "mine been making the same noise for 100k miles, no worries mate" ;-)
Bill
ps where can I get a socket for the drive gear if the bearings are shot?

 

Whatever you do please don't drive your car any further untill you pin point where the noise is comming from, it's just too risky and scary, just as a precaution.

 

Dude, that's not normal. I wouldn't drive it until I figured out what it is. Hopefully something minor. Good luck.

 

That sound goes away after it is warm??? Either something is starved for oil or something isn't clearing something else until the engine warms up. Sounds almost like something is hitting the belt covers. When my cam drive bearing went out, it was a deeper sound...almost like a coffee grinder. You could see the gear rotating in an elipse inside of the bearing...an ugly sight and an ugly and even more expensive sound. I don't think that is your problem, because that sound doesn't go away when the car warms up. It gets progressively worse. I agree with many, start taking stuff off until the sound goes away. Hope that happens before you run out of external parts.

 

If you are still hunting, and feel curious...qand have a competant companion to aid you:
when STONE cold-and for only a few seconds-LIKE 30 SECONDS- run the engine without your coolant pump belt, this allows for the possibility of isolating:
1.) NOTORIOUS WATERPUMP BEARINGS/SHAFTS starting to fail,
and/or
2.) is there a clicking from the plastic belts- these can get REALLY loud on occassion just before they snap or melt or whatever they do upon failuure.
3.) Repat with a/c compressor the follwing day if no progress...

HOWEVER....
During this 30 seconds, if noise is still present-is it 1/2 of engine speed???
If so, almost without a doubt, it is cam drive bearings behind the belt cogs which are just above the crank shaft. Remeber, there is a 2 to 1 reduction gear affair behind that cover you are looking at.

Typically, the answer is usually the simplest and most common sense.
Exotic failures on exotic cars are rarer that most think, and are more frequently a result of too much sitting.. and too little maintenance-regardless of miles since last service.
The mid 1960s to mid 1970s cars are the most susceptible to this sort of stuff....at least in my in my experience

 

I assume you already checked, but is the coolant pipe hitting the pulley or a belt. Also, there is an exhaust joint down around there..is it leaking?

 

Regarding oil. Anytime the oil level gets low enough to hear any noise, you are causing serious engine damage. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. Always check your oil level per the owners manual for your particular car/engine (wet sump/dry sump) as it specifies, and regularly enough that it NEVER falls below the lower "safe" mark. As a point of reference, I would never start the car or drive it unless the oil were in the half way range between full and safe. Anything less than the halfway point would make me add oil to bring it back to full.

When the oil level drops below the safe mark, you get into a range where its easy to suck up air, enough to make noise. Air entrains into the oil and foams it, often times enough to bring pressure up high enough to cause the oil light to go out. But its still not good, you just have a lot of useless and non-lubricating air in the system. As the oil foams, it takes the remaining useable oil from the sump and foams it up as well, and you have almost nothing. The pump is cavitating, barely pumping any volume at all, basically you just turned it into an air compressor, just enough to blow out the light and raise the oil gauge. So just because your oil lights out, or your guage indicates pressure, it does not mean your pumping oil.

As another point of reference, the oils pumps in virtually any car have a far greater capacity than the internal oil bleeds can take. A lot more. A Ferrari has quite a bit more yet than any average performance car. You could wear all the crankshaft main's and rod bearings out beyond maximum wear limits, and still get useable oil pressure that would likely be within nominal specs. IOW, you could have an engine someone ran out of oil enough times, or long enough to take all the soft bearing material off the crank bearings, and have no noticable outward appearances that anything was amiss. Oil pressure would read near normal, and you may not have any unusual noises. I have many times seen engines with crank bearings worn down into the copper that never knocked, made any untoward noise, or had any real signs of oil pressure problems other than perhaps a blinking oil light at idle on a hot day. Caveat Emptor when you buy one of these cars, because its headed for serious trouble. Hopefully youll get away with only a spun bearing.

 

Hi Bill,

I don't know how much of a computer tekkie you are so you can take this or ignore...

First...LOVE the youtube. I should do this for some of the wierd stuff I run into. Also, I am eating lunch right now and smiling like a giddy schoolboy as I watch a very familiar 308 go round. Man, I would be so nervous putting my hand in there!

so... Take your file and convert to .wav or some other audio. Do a search for audio spectrum anayzer. Run it through and look at the frequency components of this. If you know the engine rpm, you should be able to calculate if this clickety click is 1/4 or full rpm or whatever...maybe. It could be fun and pretty cheap if you use shareware.

-Rjay

 

IIRC the 308 dipstick is two quarts between the marks, also.....

 

Timing belt tensioner bearing???

 

Ok, I took all the accessory belts off & I still have the noise. I just installed my trusty home made cam holder ala Verrell or Birdman design I think (wife didn't appreciate me taking up a piece of oak flooring ;-)). While gently prying on the cam drive gear with belt still attached I noticed the belt moving so there must be some play in gear even tho I can't see it move. Car is in 5th gear with parking brake on, flywheel mark lined up, camshaft mark lined up via oil fill hole, cams locked with tool, belt & gears reference marked. Oh, & yes I know the arrow is going the wrong way on the belt (hung over from drinking Ferrari troubles away which didn't work). Have I forgot anything b4 removing belt?

Bill

Rjay Interesting idea & I'm going to look into it for the next pesky problem
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The pesky noise saga continues:
Took belt off, very little slop in bearing .005 (up/down or left/right) however as I turn the gear clockwise then counterclockwise I read .002 backlash & I hear the the metallic click/noise. I'm stymied & am tempted to put it back together, .002 backlash seems about right to me. I thought maybe the gear was moving on the shaft but I can't see any movement rocking the gear.
Suggestions?
thanks
Bill

 

BillyD,

Check the two gears that run the cam belts down by the crankshaft pulley. I know for fact that you can remove the harmonic balancer and get to the housing that holds those 2 pulley's. They each have a bearing asym in the housing. I would also take the time to confirm that your belt tensioner bearings are okay, If they make any noise spinning by hand - I would replace them. I don't think you have a major problem. Do some digging and don't forget to lock your cams and mark everything.

Joe Frazar

 

Im no expert but it does sound like a bearing to me. My car had the lower trunk side cam drive bearing go ourt. When I took the cam cover off and ran the engine the pulley was moving around1/8 inch. If you can replace your timing belts you can do this repair in the car. If I was to bet I think it is one of those bearings.

Rob

If you do a search here you will probably find the several threads about my saga.

I will look for them and post the link.

Rob

 

I'd be inclined to replace the outer cam drive pulley bearings. I've never done it, but it can be done in car fairly easily, and they are a common failure item. Search for the procedure.

If those bearings fail enough for the pulley to wobble, you then would likely have to replace the inner bearings as well, which is a lot more, umm, fun.

oops...robert got there first. What he said

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/21198.html

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44893&highlight=cam

 

Clutch release bearing. Have someone press lightly on the clutch pedal and see if the noise changes.